"Coffee Housing"

I have someone go all in preflop then stating his hand in the chat box, with the rest of the table left to act last night. I'm pretty sure this is against the rules, so I venture over to PokerStars's rules page and find this. I've never heard of such a thing.

Ok. Fine, but how can rule 7 not contradict rule 8? Maybe his doesn't apply preflop? You got me.

Oh, yeah. I did a nice job quoting that misspelling in the title. bah!

all they are saying is that if u made the play u can talk about the hand but if u didnt make the play u shouldnt say anything about the person making the play in the hand.......im confused now

Rule #9 says more than two players can't chat about the cards.Two players left in a cash game can.

why is it called coffee housing?

I guess back in the day it's like being in a coffee house and chatting it up with old friends while sippin' one down..? lol If that's the case, I frankly don't think it's a rule that should apply to online play, especially a table full of strangers.

In this rule, it would be inappropriate for player C to chat since they would be out of turn. B could say what he wanted to about his hand but not A's.

It's also an expression used in professional Srabble, where most professional Scrabble players frown on any sort of chatting while playing. Not the mnost sociable of groups...yet, they almost liken themselves to poker players (who stop chatting) or calling each other names

This is how I read the two rules.

#7 is saying that it is ok to talk about your hand after you have put someone to a decision. You have made your play and now others must decide what course of action they want to take. You can play with their head while they are making this decision. You can make them some coffee.

#9 is saying you haven't acted yet but you are going to give away information about your intent prior to your acting. This goes against rule #9.

I guess the difference is whether you have acted or not. But going back to rule #7, when you're trying to mess with someones head. Does it have to stay general like, "you should call" or can you be specific like "I'm gonna knock you upside the head with these tre deuces", because I know Norman Chad has said this specificity is against the rules.

I always thought you couldn't talk about the hand unless it was HU and you were one of the 2 still in the hand.

Zach is correct. This is what the rules are saying, the rules just say it in a confusing way. Basically, in a cash game, they ONLY players that can talk about a hand are the ones left in it (rule 7) and only when there are only two of them (rule 9). External players may not coach either player or comment on the action.

EDIT: Oh, and I fixed the title.

Thanks.

I mislabeled rule 9 also, it's supposed to be #8. Don't worry about it though.

Zach is not correct in PokerStars's eyes. The Coffee housing was legal in my situation no matter if there was almost everyone at the table still in the hand and left to act preflop. I did contact PS, because I believe it was against the rules and it possibly induced a call. Frankly, I was pissed after I lost the hand. There's nothing I could have done, coffee housing or not, since the player stating his hand won it. I'll post what PS's response is, when they send the explanation to my question that rule 8 essentially negates rule 7 in the case.

Forget coffee housing for a minute...did the guy reveal his real hand? If so then he did break the rules. A player is not allowed to divulge their true hand in the middle of a hand like that.

Yes. It was his real hand. I'm quick enough to know it's not breaking the rules if you bs people a fake hand.

Is it against the rules if, before ANY actions have taken place, say you're 1st to act pre-flop, and you tell everyone "I have XX and need to go, who wants it" and click all in? I've done this in free rolls and small (very small) buy-ins if I have to get going. I ONLY do it if no one has acted.

this is illegal.

and i'll add to what zak said.......donking off your chips is lame and unsportsmanlike.....IF YOU HAVE TO GO........... SIT OUT AND LET YOUR STACK GET BLINDED OFF......i hate those clowns that disrupt play unfairly and give edges to other opponents simply because THEY dont have the time to finish what they started.......lame

It was in a micro .01/.02 ring game

I think my head is going to explode.

I'm not trying to be lame, and there are different reasons people may not be able to finish what they start. However, I will be sure to simply use the sit-out feature from now on. I've only done this on 2 occassions and 1 of which was a play money table, so it's not too big of a deal, but I'll make sure to not do it again.

Going all-in in this scenario is not a bad strategy. If you have to leave, it's best for you to try to double or triple up and then you can sit out to the money hopefully. There's nothing wrong with doing that. What's wrong is when you announce your hand. You simply can't do that.

lol at making them coffee

this is a situation for AG to sort out. i swear, he know all the rules.

I know I have taken a look at the rules before, and this is the first time I have seen this "coffee housing" rule in there. PokerStars claims its a "rich poker tradition", but it's been about 7 hours and they haven't responded to me questioning how rule 8 essentially negates rule 7. My thoughts are they wont respond because they don't take too kindly of me questioning their rules, or they're trying to figure out how to bs me into thinking coffee housing, real or not, actually applies to online play with strangers, and would just like to ignore rule 8 because I'm sure telling your hole cards preflop surely induces more action than not, which equals rake in their pocket.

This is the response. It obviously makes no sense, literally. I'm getting a drunk explanation from Poker Stars. Nice.

So their explanation is, even though there is more than 2 people in the hand, you can state your hand, even if it does affect other players decisions (how can it not), since there was 4/6 players left to act, as long as you don't state what you're going to do with it, it is ok.

The only way I can figure this out, is that there were no players "in the pot", or in the hand for that matter, at the point where he stated his cards. He then pushed all-in, and because it was preflop, rule 8 means nothing until someone actually called the raise and the money went to the center of the table. Even then it might be coffee housing if someone says their hand. Action means nothing preflop, even if someone folded before he said his cards or there are people left to act after. Coffee Housing. mmm mmm Good.

Here's their response to my first complaint that it was illegal.

Not quite - none of them should be saying anything about their hand, in turn or otherwise. C shouldn't say "I'm going to fold" because it will influence B's decision. Likewise, B shouldn't say "I have aces" because that will influence A and C's decision.

Live, dealers make judgement calls on this stuff all the time: quite often it's allowed to happen even though it's against the rules (the World Series especially is full of examples of douchebags not even involved in the hand spouting their opinions) and people only get penalised for multiple and blatant offences.

What I don't understand is why the rule at Stars is different between ring game and tournament situations... ? Sure, it's easier to get back into a ring game than it is to get your way back deep into a tournament, but money's at stake in either case.

It's pretty simple really:

1. if you are not in the hand you can't say anything, including what you folded or if the flop would have connected w you.

2. if it's heads up, you can say almost anything.

3. if there are more than two people remaining in the hand you can't say anything that would give undue advantage to another opponent. This would be the case if player A raises, with players B and C to act an C saying he was going to fold (let's B know that he wont face a raise behind, can't count on C being in the pot to give him odds, etc.); also, for example, B can't say what his hand is because it would give C information that he didn't have previously. However, player A can say something like "I'm bluffing" as it doesn't necessarily give either of the remaining players and advantage, even though it gives them (both equally) additional information.

4. tournaments are slightly different than ring games in that even players who are not in the hand have a vested interest in the outcome of the hand, so the rules are a bit stricter.

5. imo, the "you can't tell the truth about your hand" rule is horrible. Steve Z. wrote a nice article on why here; basically, if you have to lie then you are revealing the truth anyway by definition.

Ah. Knew I was missing something, cheers