Check Nuts = Penalty

OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Total posts
8,586
Awards
1
Chips
1
It's a lame rule, but from what I can see it can only apply when you have the absolute nuts, with no other possible hands that can beat you, no matter what, AND you are the last player to act.

This is exactly right - it only applies when you've got the nuts and you're last to act.

"Nuts" and "last to act" are very clearly defined terms in poker though. You either have the nuts or you don't. You were either last to act, or you weren't.

As a result the rule is incredibly easy to enforce. If you have an unbeatable hand, you're last to act and you don't bet or raise, you get penalised. Simple as that.
 
R

rawone

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 7, 2013
Total posts
52
Chips
0
This is exactly right - it only applies when you've got the nuts and you're last to act.

"Nuts" and "last to act" are very clearly defined terms in poker though. You either have the nuts or you don't. You were either last to act, or you weren't.

As a result the rule is incredibly easy to enforce. If you have an unbeatable hand, you're last to act and you don't bet or raise, you get penalised. Simple as that.

It's very, very rare to be holding the absolute nuts. Almost every deal has some sort of alternate (but perhaps unlikely) hand that can beat you. If you can think of any possible hand that can beat you, you don't have the absolute nuts.

Ace high flush is never the absolute nuts if there is a pair on board.
 
nc_royals

nc_royals

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 20, 2007
Total posts
701
Chips
0
It's very, very rare to be holding the absolute nuts. Almost every deal has some sort of alternate (but perhaps unlikely) hand that can beat you. If you can think of any possible hand that can beat you, you don't have the absolute nuts.

Ace high flush is never the absolute nuts if there is a pair on board.
There's not a nuts and then the absolute nuts. It's the nuts with no doubt and youre acting last. The rule is spot on and there to stop collusion.
 
M

Macaroon

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 24, 2013
Total posts
238
Awards
1
GB
Chips
107
There is a very good reason why a player might not bet with the nuts on the river - if he wants to keep a short stack in the game. I assume most of you will understand the reasoning behind that.
 
dmorris68

dmorris68

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
May 27, 2008
Total posts
6,788
Awards
2
Chips
0
It's very, very rare to be holding the absolute nuts.
But when it is, it's usually quite obvious, which is what this rule is meant to address.

Almost every deal has some sort of alternate (but perhaps unlikely) hand that can beat you.
This rule addresses having the nuts on the river, so there is no "deal" that can change the hand.

If you can think of any possible hand that can beat you, you don't have the absolute nuts.
Correct -- there is only one absolute nuts, and obviously if you can think of a hand that beats you, you don't have it.

Ace high flush is never the absolute nuts if there is a pair on board.
I think every poker player knows that. This rule would not apply in that case (to the person with the nut flush). It's not about having the winning hand when there were theoretically other hands that *could* have beaten you. For instance, the nut flush on a paired board still wins the hand if the opponent didn't make a boat, but it wouldn't be the overall nuts and therefore this rule wouldn't apply. However in the far more common scenario of having a nut flush on a non-paired board, then it's very obvious that no hand can beat you. In that case this rule applies.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Total posts
8,586
Awards
1
Chips
1
It's very, very rare to be holding the absolute nuts. Almost every deal has some sort of alternate (but perhaps unlikely) hand that can beat you. If you can think of any possible hand that can beat you, you don't have the absolute nuts.

Ace high flush is never the absolute nuts if there is a pair on board.

Yeah, what dmorris said above - you either have the nuts and you're acting last, in which case the rule applies, or you don't.

You don't have the nuts very often, granted, so the rule doesn't need to be used very often. But when it's used it really is that simple.
 
R

rawone

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 7, 2013
Total posts
52
Chips
0
Yeah, what dmorris said above - you either have the nuts and you're acting last, in which case the rule applies, or you don't.

You don't have the nuts very often, granted, so the rule doesn't need to be used very often. But when it's used it really is that simple.

I agree. It's a pretty rare to be holding both the absolute nuts and being last to act... and being on a table that anyone is even paying attention to it.
 
O

oldog

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Total posts
4
Chips
0
Not much of a penalty. Sit out one hand.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Total posts
8,586
Awards
1
Chips
1
Not much of a penalty. Sit out one hand.

I'm pretty sure the penalty was sitting out one round, not one hand. So they'd miss something like nine hands, and lose their blinds and antes in the process.
 
O

oldog

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Total posts
4
Chips
0
You may well be correct. I have never been in a tournament when a penalty has been called. The video, however, clearly says the penalty is to sit out one hand
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Total posts
8,586
Awards
1
Chips
1
Sorry, you're right - it really was only one hand.

It's pretty clear that it was just stupidity on Moon's part and not deliberate soft playing, so I guess they felt sorry for him or something.
 
IntenseHeat

IntenseHeat

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Nov 21, 2012
Total posts
1,058
Chips
0
I don't really blame him for checking. He wanted to know what his opponent had, as that information might serve him later. He knows he's got the hand won, and judging from the way his opponent played the hand he knows he's not gonna get called if he bets. So he checked it. I've even paid off river bets early in tourneys when I was sure I was beat because I wanted to know what this guy is calling my 5x pre-flop raise with so I would know what his calling range was. And I've checked the river with what I thought was the best hand (not the nuts) for the same reason. Information has value too. Foregoing those chips now might help you to make many times more in hands to come. As they say, poker is a game of information. The more you have the better decisions you can make.

That being said, I don't have any problem with that rule. Men "The Master" Nguyen was known for having his cohorts soft play him.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Total posts
8,586
Awards
1
Chips
1
It's not mentioned specifically, but it falls under the category of "soft playing" which is singled out as unacceptable by several of the rules.
 
P

pokerjack43

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 11, 2012
Total posts
106
Chips
0
soft play can encompass many things.
choosing not to bet a clearly strong hand is one of them.
Choosing not to call an all in from a 1/2 bb short stack would be another.
basically you are supposed to knock players out of tournaments and try to get their chips.
Not betting the nut hand would be opposite of this.

(soft play is also not a rule, its an etiquette violation.)

Its hard to prove tho, in this example he could easily say I didn't think he would call so I didn't bet. Or i wanted to see his hand if I bet then I wouldn't get the chance.
Both would be valid reasons i suppose. But not betting the nuts looks suspicious so you'd better be sure you can convince everyone else that you weren't going easy on him.
 
D

dead homie

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 8, 2013
Total posts
255
Chips
0
i you check the nuts when last to act why even play poker, it doesnt make sense unless you dont want your opponet to lose money
 
dealio96

dealio96

The LAG Monkeys
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Total posts
7,960
Awards
5
Chips
0
It's not mentioned specifically, but it falls under the category of "soft playing" which is singled out as unacceptable by several of the rules.

THIS ^^^ ^^^
 
Karozi615

Karozi615

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 20, 2012
Total posts
517
Chips
0
it prevents collusion, plain and simple

I saw a hand between Ziigmund and another Finn on the EPT where one had AA and the other had AcKc, somehow like 2 streets were checked and the losing player lost 10% of there stack (it was just unnatural) AcKc ended up betting super small with a royal - so yes mild collusion does exist in poker, and in some cases the cheating is obvious

besides if you check back the nuts you deserve a penalty
 
Last edited by a moderator:
G

Game_Gran

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 5, 2014
Total posts
100
Chips
0
Never heard of that rule! I have to get out more often!!
 
J

jangalang37

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 10, 2013
Total posts
91
Chips
0
or you could be trying to trap the person. I disagree with that being a rule.
 
Staneff

Staneff

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 30, 2014
Total posts
245
Chips
0
Every tournament can have it`s own rules which are maybe not used on online poker. Bonus rules dont repudiate major rules of poker.
 
doncaster

doncaster

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 22, 2010
Total posts
137
Chips
0
rules rules rules.....
what is the rule about standing behind your chair while the dealer is shuffling and about to deal?
Will i be dealt in or will my cards be folded because i was not sitting?
When does a "hand" begin?
In Melbourne at the Crown casino there seems to be no consistency in this regard so where can i find the exact rule to copy and show the dealer and TD next time????
 
Samango

Samango

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
1,014
Awards
1
Chips
0
rules rules rules.....
what is the rule about standing behind your chair while the dealer is shuffling and about to deal?
Will i be dealt in or will my cards be folded because i was not sitting?
When does a "hand" begin?
In Melbourne at the Crown casino there seems to be no consistency in this regard so where can i find the exact rule to copy and show the dealer and TD next time????

Well why don't you just follow the rule that they have told you the last time?
It doesn't matter what you show them, it's their casino, their rules
 
Top