Chat Cheats?

A quick question for you all. What do you think about poker sites and forums that allow you to enter IM details in your profiles?

I won a MTT last night but at the final table some dude was writing gobblydook in the chat box. When I asked him what he was doing he said he was chatting with a friend on messenger and the applications kept getting mixed up.
Now, I am not very suspicious by nature but he had the same placename as someone else on the table, suggesting they came from the same town. That said, none of their play was suspicious and they weren't real friendly in the chat box.
Are you scared of people cheating by using messenger, or do you think that I am just being paranoid?
I have posted this in some other forums as well but I'd appreciate knowing what you guys here think. You hear so much about cheating that I suppose I am getting worried now.

It is silly to worry about it. Of course some people cheat when using IM. You can cheat using the phone too. There is nothing you can do to stop them. However there are many of us who don't cheat using IM. I have loads of contacts and almost all of them play poker. We chat and have fun but don't cheat at poker.

The most they can do is play soft against each other, pass chips on purpose. They can't win the game on those things alone. If you are really worried about it stick to multi table games. They can't control which table they get on.

I used to play wth a small group of people - and there was a handful that did this all the time. They never won any more often than the rest of us.

If you get suspicious leave the table (if it is a ring game). Make notes on the players and move on.

My understanding is that poker sites monitor for signs of collusion. One sign would be when 2 people play regularly at the same cash tables. If they investigate a complaint they should be able to discover odd plays.

Given how important it is for online sites to have a good image in this respect, I think they are doing what they can to make it difficult to cheat.

Of course nothing is ever going to be 100%. If 2 players on your table decide to collude using IM, there is nothing to stop them. But if they do it regularly, I would imagine they would be caught.

So I wouldn't worry too much about that, but as dakota said, if you suspect it, leave the table. Better safe than sorry.

I hope they don't look too closely at playing at the same cash tables as being a sign of collusion because I search out the fish to play with them. There are not very many people who play limit and I can do this more easily than I could at NL. Hopefully, I win against them enough to show it could not be collusion.

These people have teams of this, 6+ people continuously randomly working together at the same limit to take out other players at the table.

Not easy to do, but people do it.

well i mean it could sometimes be obvious if ppl are colluding in limit

if it is capped preflop then on the flop and turn and u fold to the last bet on the river,i would get suspicious and wave the red flag to support and get it checkout

but i really wonder what percentage of ppl playing are colluders cause ive seen some strange things

What he said about typing in a different program like Instant Messenger could be very true. When I am typing in instant messenger to non-poker friends while also playing a poker game, if I type a sentence and hit enter right as the poker window flashes up, i will have just typed the last few letters and hit enter into the poker window instead of the instant message window.

This can make for some interesting jibberish!

HUH?

not much you can do about it. just hope that if there is collusion, the site catches it. if i'm on a ring table and i feel that something fishy is going on. i'll just simply leave.

I've had someone make the whipsaw play colluding online, but I had caught top set to kk and made a load of money off the aa and the 29 of the other player who played it to the river without hitting. So not only did I make a bunch of money off them because they were colluding they got reported So yes, it does happen and in general it will cost you money but you might get a bunch of money out of it

Playing at the same cash game tables means you're colluding? That's daft. I mean what's the point of having features like player searches and buddy lists if you can't find buddies and fish(but isn't everyone a fish?), to play with?

Sure you can cheat using messenger. It's only natural for you to get suspicious or paranoid. I know I get paranoid when I'm at a table where two of the players insist on speaking French, Spanish, or any number of languages that are foreign to me. They could be talking about anything including work or school but I get paranoid.

I'm going to just guess and say that the big cheaters are letting computers do the work for them. They use bots or they use those apps that let players team up and look at each others hole cards. I say if you wanna play in teams go play bridge but hey I'm just one person.

Lol this happens to me all the time - if you play TAG it can create a great table image of being completely mental

Check the site rules where you are playing. Most of the big sites/networks don`t allow any language other than English and will deal with that if you report it to support.

Ipoker, where I play a good deal, has a lot of European players and the foreign language thing is not uncommon. I usually (politely) remind the players that only English is permitted. If that doesn`t have the desired effect, I tell live support. They always deal with it promptly and warn players that their chat priveliges will be suspended if they don`t stick to the rules.

Bots may work for low limits Limit Holdem, but at present it would be difficult to make them work for NL and higher stakes.

The thing is if they wanted to collude, they don't need to use a foreign language and get recorded by the poker site. All they need is an independent chat or voice communication.

If someone get's caught colluding using the poker-site chat, they should be banned not for collusion, but for excessive stupidity.

But not counting that the person mentioned they were in messenger, here's a situation that's not remotely cheating but might look like it from the outside:

When I'm making player notes sometimes the very end of words will end up in the chatbox. It's because I'm not finished typing when it's time for me to act. Might only be a problem at UB though.

Hey Cheetah, is your sig from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? It's very familiar to me but I haven't read that novel in ages so can't be sure.

Sometimes my friends and I will enter big MTTs together to see who can last the longest. Inevitably, every once in awhile we will end up at the same table. It's always feels like we are colluding even though we aren't actively telling each other hole cards or passing chips.

Also, what if you like playing at ring games with your friends to outplay them? This could be a situation where you play at the same table as somebody a lot, but are not colluding.

I'll talk on AIM all the time while I'm playing poker. Sometimes it'll even be about a hand, but I wait until the hand is over to talk about it. I may be telling someone about the interesting hand 5 hands ago and something like AJs will slip into the pokerstars chat box, but most of the time it's just gibberish. Sure it's possible, but unless the gibberish was "what do you have?" or "well if you folded two 5's, guess I better fold", don't worry about it.

One of the biggest threats and least talked about while playing online poker cash tables is the professional collusion teams. These teams actually treat online poker as a part time job. They mix it up so well they play with different time shifts to make sure the team players don't get noticed playing together. They don't instant message each other, they talk in real time via head phones and their own server.

I know a team player from a club, who by the way I couldn't even get his screen name. He told me he plays on a team of seven members. They average between 200.00 and 300.00 each per week. They don't get greedy and usually play 1/2 and 2/4. I asked why not the big stakes? He said they would get nailed there within one week. Not enough different players at that level.

Another reason why I play tournaments online 95% of the time.

Once in awhile we hear about a site popping a team, but you could be sure their just kids.

This is an illustration that collusion can be an issue. I agree, if a team of people decide to do this, there is little that can be done to stop them.

At the same time, they cannot right now do it at the higher levels. Let's hope this continues to be the case. Otherwise, online poker would suffer a severe blow.

re: foreign laguages....On occasio I've been now to cal some one a donkey or what ever speaking in Afrikaans and ever had a censor stop my wirtting. I've also seen pleny of people chatting in lang. other than english as well.

Caught a few colluding and reported the ASAP, the sites busted them and e mailed me back each time. Dom esle groutjie's!

200-300 a week? That's nothing. We've got forum members that I think make 10k+. $300 a week for 50 weeks is 15k. They'd probably be better off just learning to play poker on their own. If it's undetectable I fail to see what they can do to gain them any more than a tiny tiny edge. The only way I can see such a team profiting without using obvious tactics (squeezing someone in between would get caught really quick) would be just to improve their odds calculations. All of a sudden with a flush draw it's not 9/47, it's 9/45 or else 8/45 or 7/45. I'd think putting another bad player in that place would make the profit margin go up more than the odds adjustments.

They are obviously not doing this professionally. Not even semi-intelligently.

They are just idiots. Nothing different than my chair in the North-Eastern corner of my living room getting a sun-burn.

The Sun still revolves around itself, as it should

With technology nowadays its so easy to colude with other players. IM, chat rooms, video chat, phone even just getting together in the same room.

The sites do check and they mention that any one found doing such will be banned.

All in all report it, make notes and get off the table if you suspect anything!!

At our local site there is often a group of 4 or 5 of us at a 6 seat table playing SNG... There is NO colussion going on! We are all of about the same level and it supplies ample data to analyse your game as we often show our hands instead of mucking them. You should see us have a go at each other in the freerolls.

ND I think Cheetahs quote may be from one of Terry Pratchetts novels if not THGTTG.

[quote=zachvac;685384]200-300 a week? That's nothing. We've got forum members that I think make 10k+. $300 a week for 50 weeks is 15k. They'd probably be better off just learning to play poker on their own. If it's undetectable I fail to see what they can do to gain them any more than a tiny tiny edge. The only way I can see such a team profiting without using obvious tactics (squeezing someone in between would get caught really quick) would be just to improve their odds calculations. All of a sudden with a flush draw it's not 9/47, it's 9/45 or else 8/45 or 7/45. I'd think putting another bad player in that place would make the profit margin go up more than the odds adjustments.[/quote


To make 10k a week playing online cash tables, you would have to be playing high stakes, with deep pockets. I'm not sure you could make 10k a week at 1/2 - 2/4, even if you were to multi-table, 24-seven.

I would also love to hear from anyone on this forum that does achieve that task.

I personally think your post is flawed and contains fantasy.

I made 4k last month an only because tiger nuts are so valued. Am I nuts or do I hate people?

?

What do i need to say more _O_

love poker,or get OUT!!!!

10k a year, not 10k a week. 200-300 a week comes out to 15k a year. I think ChuckTs posted a graph recently where at 25c/50c blinds he made between 9 and 10k last year. Again, what advantage besides the tiny tiny edges gained from having cards eliminated when calculating odds would you gain by colluding as a team that wouldn't get caught?

Yep, 10k a year was Zach`s intent, and he was right. There are several of the regulars here who are at that level or thereabouts just playing recreationally.

So, anyone who needs to cheat to achieve that must be a pathetic player.

So basically Cheetah's just an uber-god. Oh, and CTs graph for December is frankly sexy - hold on let me find a link (or obv check his blog) ...

Here it is (http://www.cardschat.com/f53/6-tabling-50nl-w-o-audio-101650/): a few posts down - 6.0BB/100!!

it's sad people wast all their energy cheating. they would make more money using their energy for good

That is amazing. That's my goal by the summer, not to be at that point in profit, but to be good enough that I can profit close to that.

But the amazing part isn't the 10k in a year, the amazing part is that's only 16,615 hands. Now that may seem like a lot, but that thread is a video of him 6-tabling. If he played every day of the year (probably not, but read on) that's only 45 hands per day. Even single tabling that's little more than half an hour. And 6-tabling? 8 hands per table? That's just over an average of 10 minutes per day. So sure he probably didn't play 365 days in a the year, but even at once a week that's about an hour per session. I don't know how many tables he usually plays, but even at 1, that's 6 hours a week.

IIRC from his blog he's in school now, but that win rate is more than enough to make a living playing full time. Even if 99% of this was single-tabling, multiply that by 6 to get 36 hours a week (that leaves 4*52 = 208 hours vacation at actually working 40 hours a week, or 5.2 weeks of vacation), that comes out to 60k a year. And then throw in the fact that he probably is multi-tabling, and winning at that rate full time is making 6 figures a year. This is why I question people who say that you have to play at least $10/$20 to make a living at poker. Maybe that's true live, but when you can play multiple tables and play as well as some of the people do here, you don't need to cheat or play high stakes.

Times a team of seven members equals over $100,000.00 a year. I also agree that cheating is pathetic. But, if you're trying to dismiss pro collusion teams, you're being foolish. Unfortunately, it does exist and it's a serious problem. I'd love to see the outcome of anyone playing against a team of four players at your table. Knowing about 8 cards preflop goes way beyond tiny tiny edges.

I think zach's point was based around the premise that if this was done regularly with so many people it would be far too obvious and they would get caught rather quickly, so the edges would indeed be much smaller than this as they cannot cheat to this extent.

Zach I'm slightly confused by your post but let me just reread it and figure out why - it's to do with the period of time which the sample was taken, hold on let me reread it...

okay:

Yep, it totals to around 10k per annum at this rate (19 day sample, $500 profit). But this is, don't forget, a sample for 19 days not the whole year, so the bold is a strange statement... Plz tell me if I'm being an rtard and missing the whole thang (I am v. tired)

Yes but total doesn't matter. I could say that my job at McDonalds gets me millions of dollars. The whole team of us makes x in a year (I don't actually work there so I can't comment). Each person is making 15k a year, which for doing a job, is not all that great, I think it's around the poverty line.

And each person you add at a table decreases the profit for several reasons (I'm assuming they are better than average players)

1. They all are getting raked
2. If they play at different tables they play 4 times as many hands, thus their edge would have to net them an extra 3 times their individual normal return to be profitable
3. All this without using the traditional collusion techniques of squeeze betting, and unless all players had amazing hands, 8/52 of the cards known isn't all that huge of an advantage (see #2 at the advantage they would have to have to be profitable)

The edges I can see:
1. mentioned above, more knowledge than others
2. small decrease in rake, as if 2 players are in the hand one with a slightly better monster, they can ensure the pot is smaller than would normally happen. Still though, if they do this too much they will get caught. Awful fishy if the nuts checks it down or simply makes a small river value bet every time it's 2 out of 4 people who always happen to sit together
3. Best hand play. I would have all players almost always see a flop, the one who hits it the best plays it (or if they all miss and there's a lot of betting, they all just fold). Two problems with this: one, it's easy to catch. If half the table is seeing 80% of flops and some just happen to fold top pair when someone else hits a set or 2 pair, they know something's going on. Second problem, rake hits them hard if all 4 play every flop.

If they are profitable players, just seems they could make more money on their own playing than playing as a team.