Can you turn a trash hand into a long term winner?

Hey guys,

I've always wanted to do this little experiment, and I think now is the time. Basically, I'll take an awful starting hand and for a few weeks play it similarly to how I'd play a really strong hand, i.e. very aggressively. Obviously, I'll mostly have to avoid showdowns.

Looking through the worst $/hand list for the last 2 months, the worst trash hand is 96o which has cost me $0.93/hand. Next in the list is T7o with -$0.88/hand. A bit further down comes J7o with -$0.80/hand.

The totals for roughly 1300 hands each are:
96o = -194.9 ptBB
T7o = -172.3 ptBB
J7o = -152.8 ptBB

The graphs all look remarkably similar. They are almost linear (due to lots of folding) with no upswings in sight. Once we have picked a hand, I'll post the graph and try to turn it into a winner
If you think I should pick a hand not on the list, please post it.

OMG, it has to be 73o imfo.

Your just cheating with 96o, T7o and J7o are all top quality connecting hands imo

^it doesnt matter what hand, cause ur just going to be bluffing 95% of the time
go for 7-2 o

Did you mean 72o? I picked those three hands because they have cost me the much. A lot of suited connectors, even some small pairs, have cost me much more, but they are not considered trash hands.

Just for comparison:
72o = -141.1 ptBB over ~1300 hands
73o = -152.4 ptBB over ~1300 hands

I would be willing to pick 73o.

Go for it 72o then, its kinda sexy imo.

Actually, you may be right. Turning this infamous hand into a winner would be sexy.

So, I'm willing to pick 72o after all. You guys do some voting, and hopefully I can start with this tomorrow or the day after.

10-7o

You could join KD's quest to make 84o pokers most profitable hand.

72o

let me know when you're experimenting with these hands and at which table pls via a pm...

I believe in the ancient history of CC there is something mystical about 84o.

6-9, I always seem to get that.

Position?

it's an interesting question. the best way to do it, if turning a trash hand into a winner was your only goal, would probably be to play in a way where that trash hand was the only hand you played. that way you'd be incredibly tight and people would give you credit for a hand when you raised whatever trash it was. of course, that's the extreme end of it. basically the tighter you are, the better it would work. also, this would destroy your whole winrate, but at least you'd do better with the trash hand

depends on how much your will to wager on your cards and then you must luck out on the flop and make something happen othrwise your chances are slim to none

I haven't played any poker in almost 3 weeks, so I can't wait any longer. The votes are inconclusive, and I have decided to go with 84o.
I ran a search but couldn't find the original thread (which I have never read). Apparently it's somewhat of a legendary Cardschat hand. And it's a 3-gapper, making it trashier than the hands I originally suggested (J7 has more high card value).

Why? Do you think it would give you an advantage? My 3-betting and 4-bet bluffing range is wide enough already, adding 84o won't suddenly make me a target.

I'm not going to change my game at all. I play a tight 21/18, and that's what I'll keep playing.

Let's see if we can change this graph. I will play 6-max exclusively.

The Doyle Brunson----10-2o

Chris, do you have more SD or NSD winnings with AA and KK ? Those are probably among the hands that you play the most aggressively, right?

For AA and KK, showdown and no showdown winnings are almost identical. No showdown profit is about 11% less than showdown profit (total, not per hand!)

NSD winnings for AA and KK is 3.2ptBB/hand.
NSD winnings for 84o is -0.1ptBB/hand.

It has been done before. KerouacsDog has demonstrated that 84o can be a long-term winning hand if you play it as though it were AA.

In honour of his achievement, we include it in CCs annual scavenger hunt and we all try to take down at least one large pot with 84o. Some of us enjoy more success at this than others.

It's been done? Dayum. Do you have a link?

Yikes. it must be ~2 years and 30,000 threads ago.

I will PM KD and see if he knows where to find it, or whether he might just summarise for us.

As if your plan wasn't difficult enough, how about adding the stipulation that you have to show 84o when you win a pot with it.

yeah, Ive got 84 hands somewhere, only at micro............you want links?


but having a look at your three suggestions, there way too dodgy to play, imo. At least with 84 you know where you are, 90% of the time.
69, T7, J7, right? well, T7 and J7 are ok, till the flop comes JQK or something similiar, after you've raised it PF and been called. You've hit the straight draw with the first hand, and bottom pair with the second, but whats the likely hands of the people calling your raise? Normally, High cards/high PPs, which would slaughter you in both cases with a board like that.
69? Nice hand, but too many people play it, 'cause of the sexual connotations, maybe, I dont know.

Anyway, will find links somewhere, for 84, my nomination, if you like?

sorry, just read this thread thoroughly after already posting, here's how I play 84os, when Im on my A game.
Like ET said, you basically play it like its AA, you get the mindset that you have AA, and treat it as such. Imagine, if we were sat at a table and you were physically blind, and I was your helper?
I look at your hand and whisper what you have.
I see 84os, look at the table(this is live, btw), realise that you are the best at the table, and whisper to you that you have AA(instead of the actual 84), how would you play it. Thats the mindset you need.


here's one, not really excellent play, I just went all-in, but its just to prove I do play/like them.
http://www.cardschat.com/f46/whats-chump-73731/

oh, for more by me and other ccers, type 84os immortal in search engine to get more HH's

Well, Egon said that you demonstrated 84o can be a long-term winner. Did you ever post a graph or stats?

I just played 1K hands, and apparently I got dealt 84o 5 times. But I must be autopiloting so much that I didn't even realize I got dealt the hand and just folded every time. The 84o needs to start jumping out at me or I'll overlook it

er, graphs/stats, no sorry, I dont use Poker Tracker or any other stat-gathering tools at the mo, Im just a micro stake donk.
I could probably remember my last 20 or so times I played them, they pretty much take the same course as a high-pocket pair, with regards to betting.
As for 84 jumping out at you, it will after the first time you win with it when played like it's AA. You actually wait for it, after a while, because you know you're gonna have to fire bullets on every street with it, and bluff the crap out of it. It doesnt always work, no hand does, but the true odds of it going up against AA and the like doesnt relate at all to the amount of times I actually win with it, albeit mostly without showdowns.
It works better live, playing with the 'big boys', so to speak, cause of my ultra tight image live, with the same people every week pretty much, from about a group of 70 or so, I guess.
At micro you always get the calls of 5xBB when it's only 1c/2c, but then it's even more fun, you've really got to work hard with it to pull off a win.
I'm busy now, but will try a couple of rings later, and play my 84's like AA/KK/QQ and post results later, ok?
sat at ps now, for 10 minutes, maybe I'll get it............kerouacsdog at ps

PokerStars Game #19885086796: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2008/08/25 - 10:12:30 (ET)
Table 'Isberga' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: T-BoneousMax ($9.30 in chips)
Seat 5: Kerouacs Dog ($2 in chips)
Seat 6: gziki65 ($4.56 in chips)
Seat 9: ata3911 ($2.83 in chips)
T-BoneousMax: posts small blind $0.01
Extra Velvet: is sitting out
Kerouacs Dog: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Kerouacs Dog [Qs Ac]
gziki65: calls $0.02
ata3911: folds
Extra Velvet leaves the table
T-BoneousMax: calls $0.01
Kerouacs Dog: raises $0.06 to $0.08
gziki65: calls $0.06
T-BoneousMax: calls $0.06
*** FLOP *** [4c 7d 8h]
T-BoneousMax: checks
Kerouacs Dog: bets $0.06
gziki65: calls $0.06
T-BoneousMax: folds
*** TURN *** [4c 7d 8h] 8♣
Kerouacs Dog: checks
gziki65: checks
*** RIVER *** [4c 7d 8h 8c] Q♦
Kerouacs Dog: bets $0.10
gziki65: folds
Uncalled bet ($0.10) returned to Kerouacs Dog
Kerouacs Dog collected $0.36 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $0.36 | Rake $0
Board [4c 7d 8h 8c Qd]
Seat 1: T-BoneousMax (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 5: Kerouacs Dog (big blind) collected ($0.36)
Seat 6: gziki65 folded on the River
Seat 9: ata3911 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

lol, first hand, wish i had it then...............

okerStars Game #19885133859: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2008/08/25 - 10:15:39 (ET)
Table 'Isberga' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: T-BoneousMax ($9.34 in chips)
Seat 4: schlot1 ($1.53 in chips)
Seat 5: Kerouacs Dog ($2.74 in chips)
Seat 6: gziki65 ($4.30 in chips)
Seat 9: ata3911 ($2.68 in chips)
schlot1: posts small blind $0.01
Kerouacs Dog: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Kerouacs Dog [Tc 2c]
gziki65: folds
ata3911: folds
T-BoneousMax: calls $0.02
schlot1: calls $0.01
SY Sueno joins the table at seat #2
Kerouacs Dog: raises $0.06 to $0.08
T-BoneousMax: calls $0.06
schlot1: calls $0.06
*** FLOP *** [4s Th 6s]
schlot1: checks
Kerouacs Dog: bets $0.16
T-BoneousMax: folds
hanima joins the table at seat #8
schlot1: folds
Uncalled bet ($0.16) returned to Kerouacs Dog
Kerouacs Dog collected $0.24 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $0.24 | Rake $0
Board [4s Th 6s]
Seat 1: T-BoneousMax (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: schlot1 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 5: Kerouacs Dog (big blind) collected ($0.24)
Seat 6: gziki65 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: ata3911 folded before Flop (didn't bet)


doyle would be proud...................
(sorry for hijack!) next post will be 84, promise!

Well, alright then, the experiment hasn't been done after all, at least not with long-term data. And human memory is very selective, as we all know.

Ive done it, but evidence hasnt been collated for documentation, if thats what you mean?
I dont keep records online, too much information out there for everyone to see.
btw, what stakes are we talking here,for your experiment, Chris?

sorry, couldnt get you 84, but I played my 96 like i had AA, after the flop i paused big time, to make it look like I was working out my bet......... to tell you the truth, it doesnt matter what hands you are holding, as long as you convince yourself(and more importantly, others) that you are holding AA, which works until you meet AA...........

PokerStars Game #19885402662: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2008/08/25 - 10:32:51 (ET)
Table 'Isberga' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: T-BoneousMax ($5.88 in chips)
Seat 2: pisti79 ($2.97 in chips)
Seat 3: BigHairyApe ($0.98 in chips)
Seat 5: Kerouacs Dog ($2.15 in chips)
Seat 6: gziki65 ($14.61 in chips)
Seat 7: jeje123 ($2.27 in chips)
Seat 8: hanima ($4.90 in chips)
Seat 9: ata3911 ($2.28 in chips)
T-BoneousMax: posts small blind $0.01
pisti79: posts big blind $0.02
jeremycall85: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Kerouacs Dog [9h 6c]
BigHairyApe: folds
Kerouacs Dog: raises $0.06 to $0.08
gziki65: calls $0.08
jeje123: folds
hanima: folds
ata3911: folds
T-BoneousMax: folds
pisti79: folds
*** FLOP *** [Ac Ks Th]
ata3911 leaves the table
mali shurda joins the table at seat #9
Kerouacs Dog: bets $0.10
gziki65: folds
Uncalled bet ($0.10) returned to Kerouacs Dog
Kerouacs Dog collected $0.19 from pot
Kerouacs Dog: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $0.19 | Rake $0
Board [Ac Ks Th]
Seat 1: T-BoneousMax (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: pisti79 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: BigHairyApe folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Kerouacs Dog collected ($0.19)
Seat 6: gziki65 folded on the Flop
Seat 7: jeje123 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: hanima folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: ata3911 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

nah, gotta go, no luck with 84, when you want it you dont get it, i would have posted win or lose.

nice hand to finish on............nice river!

PokerStars Game #19885540937: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2008/08/25 - 10:41:16 (ET)
Table 'Isberga' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: T-BoneousMax ($5.69 in chips)
Seat 2: pisti79 ($2.94 in chips)
Seat 3: BigHairyApe ($0.93 in chips)
Seat 4: jeremycall85 ($1.17 in chips)
Seat 5: Kerouacs Dog ($2.01 in chips)
Seat 6: gziki65 ($16.49 in chips)
Seat 8: hanima ($5.13 in chips)
Seat 9: mali shurda ($4.98 in chips)
mali shurda: posts small blind $0.01
T-BoneousMax: posts big blind $0.02
vongretch: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Kerouacs Dog [Ad Ks]
pisti79: folds
BigHairyApe: folds
jeremycall85: folds
Kerouacs Dog: raises $0.06 to $0.08
gziki65: raises $0.06 to $0.14
hanima: folds
mali shurda: folds
T-BoneousMax: folds
Kerouacs Dog: raises $0.36 to $0.50
gziki65: raises $0.36 to $0.86
Kerouacs Dog said, "AA?"
Kerouacs Dog: raises $1.15 to $2.01 and is all-in
gziki65: calls $1.15
*** FLOP *** [7d 4d Th]
*** TURN *** [7d 4d Th] 2♠
*** RIVER *** [7d 4d Th 2s] K♦
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Kerouacs Dog: shows [Ad Ks] (a pair of Kings)
gziki65: mucks hand
Kerouacs Dog collected $3.85 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $4.05 | Rake $0.20
Board [7d 4d Th 2s Kd]
Seat 1: T-BoneousMax (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: pisti79 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: BigHairyApe folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: jeremycall85 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Kerouacs Dog showed [Ad Ks] and won ($3.85) with a pair of Kings
Seat 6: gziki65 mucked [Qc Qd]
Seat 8: hanima (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: mali shurda (small blind) folded before Flop


34 hands in total......again, sorry for hijack.