Brutal card protection ruling

I usually keep my cards in my hand so I didn't think I needed a card protector. This will change today. On May 5, 2011 I was playing in the Jacksonvile Florida poker room (St. Johns) in a 100 dollar deep stack tourney starting with 18 people and 6000 chips each. After 3 hours 6 of us remained. I was by far the chip leader with about 36,000 in chips. The blinds were at 1,200 +100 ante. Several people were down to two or three big blinds. The one remaining aggressive player (villain) was in the cuttoff with about 13,000 in chips. I was under the gun and had 88. I just called and the 2 others limped behind me. Then the villain raised to three thousand something. The button, small, and big all folded. Sensing the steal attempt, I said I'm all in. The dealer announced my all in and the rest of the table folded around to the aggressive guy. He said, "I call" with his remaining 8000 in chips and turned over AQ. I took my hands off my cards to push in my chips and the dealer (Chris) while gathering the other players folded cards with his right hand reached out with his left hand and grabbed my cards and mucked them. I said, "what are you doing!" The dealer looked at the top two cards to see if they were my cards but the 88 had gone irretrievably into the middle of the muck. The floor was called and they ruled that not only did I lose what was in the pot already but I had to pay off the guys "all in" call! "What!" The ruling cost me the lead, doubled up the other player, and sent me on huge tilt. My 88 was over 50% against the villain and if I won the hand I would have knocked off the toughest player and had half the chips in play against the last 5 week players. Instead the villain player who doubled up got the chip lead and put me out about 3 hands later. What really pissed me off is the player was allowed to decide whether to take just what was in the pot or to enforce his call of my all in. He chose to enforce his call robbing me of an extra 8000 in chips. What a prick. What do you all think of the ruling?

In my opinion that should have been a dead hand and re-dealt. This is how we would play a situation like that out at most home games I have attended. At least then both players could agree to disagree without someone getting screwed like you did. That's just an odd situation and I am very surprised they allowed the guy to just take your chips? Did they play the hand out and he would have won? Or did they just say oh well your screwed pay up?

Nobody witnessed my 88 because my hand was still face down. When the villain called my all in the button, small, and large blind still had to act. So, my cards were still face down. When the dealer mucked them he said he believed me that I had 88 but it could not be proven so the villain with his live cards got the pot and 8000 more for his all in call.

It was ruled correctly other than they shouldn't have given the other guy a choice. He should have just been awarded your chips.

I deleted your other thread on this btw. I'm also going to move this one to General Poker.

So if the dealer mucks your hand the hand is dead?

Seems harsh to me.

Seems harsh but the ruling was correct. It is your responsibility to protect your cards at all times. Tough lesson.

Fair ruling, other player should not be put in the position of having to decide if he wants the rest of his chips.

Hand protection rules are in place for a very specific reason, its to keep the game fair, and to stop people attempting to foul losing hands/missed draws on the river and get their chips back. Harsh lesson, but I guarentee it will never happen to you again.

^ this. I'm guessing giving villain the choice was the floor's way of at least tyring to throw OP a bone but it's actually a pretty brutal situation for the villain too: it's not his fault OP's hand got mucked and now he's basically being told he either has to give up a bunch of the chips (along with the equity in the tournament they represent) or have the whole table think he's a douchebag when the default situation is that all the chips go to him.

I agree with everyone that the ruling was correct as it played out , and I have heard of this happening many times . but what pisses me off is why do dealers always freakin touch peoples cards ? keep your freaking hands off my cards unless they are over the same line that constitutes a bet . what would be the ruling if when he reached out for my cards I hammered his hand , smiled and said sorry those are live did you not hear me call all in dumb ass ? please pay attention if your going to deal for us jmo

Yeah, I can't agree with this at all and I would be flipping if this happened to me. The dealer really should be aware that two guys are all in and not be mucking people's cards. If someone has mucked their cards, that is a seperate issue. But he didn't muck his cards and they shouldn't have been taken. I guess, luckily, I always use a card protector.

I mean people make mistakes, dealers included. How would you resolve this issue if his cards are not clearly identifable from the muck, take his word for it ?

Its really unfortunate but the rules are there for a reason. If your hand gets mucked (and that will ocasionally happen, dealers are only human) you end up in a situation where a player could just claim to have cards he didnt have. So its really unfortunate but I cant think of how the ruiles could be fairer (not just considering you and your situation but considering everything as a whole) how would you like it if his hand got mucked and he turned around and said "I had AA" the dealer then sorts through 14 mucked cards and says "well there are two aces here so I guess they must be yours" and hands him two Aces. Meanwhile there are two players at the table who seem to know him simultaneously grinning and nodding at him. One starts to cough in a way you dont like.....

Put a chip from your stack on top of your cards in future

And unlucky about the ruling but rules are rules, feel bad for you but the tournament director can only enforce the rules and when you say you call and then your hand is mucked you've still called but have no shot at winning the pot so he has to get your chips

I never played live poker at a casino, just home games with my friends, and I have to say I'm really glad you posted this thread because I never even knew about this rule, I guess I should enforce this rule at our home games too just so when any of us do go to a casino we are aware of this and are used to protecting our cards at all times, I feel so dumb about not knowing about this rule before, thanks for discussing this.

yes this rule is in effect but i have to say it's an insanely unfair ruling. it'll be incredibly easy for collusion to happen. if that dude that had AQ was a buddy of the dealer's, just imagine...

What about the other side postflopper - he shoves a bluff and gets called, pushes his hand out a little into the path of the dealer who is mucking then claims it was the dealer's fault and gets his chip back?

What about if the dealer is a friend of yours?

Here is an example from the WSOP a couple years ago.

Since you called "All in" there was no reason for you to physically push your chips in.
The dealer acknowledged your all in.
Once the other two players mucked and the villain called you should be paying attention to the cards, the chips can be sorted out later.

Sorry

horrible situation no doubt , luckily she got some back . can you imagine having a very large stack and being close to the money and losing the WSOP on a dealers mistake . I guess card protectors would stop it , so the rules should say everyone must use a card protector . or it should be in my opinion the same as a bet if your chips are out past a certain point , it's a bet . the same should go for the cards , if they are not out past the line , then the dealer should not touch them . I do understand that anyone can make a mistake but why would any dealer be so stupid as to take cards that are right up against the rail in front of you ? would anyone fold and just leave their cards there ?
bull
the dealer did not acknowledge his all in or even have the sense to realize it , as with the dealer in the youtube clip . I assume the dealers are just trying to do their job and not really paying attention to the game itself . imo a good dealer of WSOP caliber would know who was in and who was out and where the hand stood at all times .

Something I need to add about the timing of the whole thing. The dealer was mucking the cards while people were folding and actually pulled my cards in before the other player said he calls. So the other player was able to call an all in bet against a dead hand and get paid off.

100% the ruling made at any card room I have played in (except some differentiate upon exactly how many chips you would have lost, but most would have paid him your allin amount)

This ruling is same at a cash game where you suddenly do not have the cards you were betting with because dealer mistakenly took them in. If your cards were protected, even if the dealer mistakenly takes them in, you do not lose your chips.

A dealer called floor on me because i slapped her hand, true story.

First hand on the final table of a 2 day MTT (see the big wins thread), I raise UTG with AKs, and a shorty shoved on me, I was tanking to see if an overcaller had a hand and she tried to muck it. Just instinct, I slapped her hand away, she called floor, I ask for a new dealer and got it.

I've only played in a few live games, so I have a couple of questions for the more experienced folks regarding protecting your cards:

(1) What happens if you do have your cards protected but the dealer still pulls them in? Has that ever happened?

(2) If they are pulled in, are they automatically dead, or do you have an opportunity to tell your two cards to the floor manager (rank and suit of each) so he can see if the top two cards in the muck match? Or does that just depend on the poker room?

That video of killed aces... OUCH!

Unlikely. Put something on top and keep them behind the line, even if they get pulled into the muck they'll be easy to get back out again if you have to because the chip on top will weigh them together, dealer will notice there's something on top of cards before mucking, or will notice when pulling them in that they are heavier than normal which is why a heavy card protector can be good too. Something bright and heavy is the best I guess

Pretty sure most card rooms let you have this opportunity.

Although fwiw I've played probably 30 live tournaments at my local casino where the dealers aren't that great and I've never seen/heard of any cards being accidently mucked while people are all in.

The only times I've ever seen a player's hand accidentally mucked was when they didn't have their cards protected. You also have to watch out not only for the dealer, but clueless or assinine players at the table. I was playing at a live cash game at the local casino once, and this one guy sitting next to me had it in for another guy across the table, who, incidentally wasn't protecting his cards. Apparently, the guy next to me had suffered one too many bad beats from the other guy. After ass-guy tells me his tale of woe, and pointing out how the other guy didn't have his hand protected, he says to me, "Watch this." Then proceeded to turn his head in the other direction, and fold his cards by flinging them nonchalantly across the table, where they landed on the other guy's cards (if I remember correctly, the other guy had raised the pot). So the other guy's hand was declared dead by the dealer, and the poor guy just had this look on his face like, "WTF??" The a-hole next to me was given a talking to by the dealer about how to properly fold his hand, but he just feigned ignorance ("Oh, sorry about that"), then smirked to me later. So yeah, diligence at all times!

If this were to happen and you had a protector on your cards.... are your cards "protected" ? btw.. I hope I dont run into assman in any of my games.

Dealers don't "always" touch people's cards - saying that is no better than the people who say that their aces "always" get cracked, you're using a massive chunk of selective recall. It's only the exceptional hands where something goes wrong that anybody even bothers to talk about the dealer, the thousands of other hands that were dealt perfectly go without mention.

I'm assuming from your tone that you perform your job with 100% accuracy every minute of every day and you've never made a mistake ever?

If you cards and weighed down & covered by a chip then there won't be any chance for the folded cards to get mixed up

no sir you misinterpreted my tone , I meant no offense to most dealers , including you . and no I am not perfect nor do I expect perfection from anyone else . I mentioned several times that I do understand mistakes by anyone . my apologies if you were offended . my tone comes from the emotion of pain suffered by anyone who is the victim of a mistake and I may get carried away at times . as a dealer can you comment on the other stuff I said about rules and where you get cards from to muck . although both dealers in this case may be good dealers , you do agree that mucking someones cards who did not fold comes from momentarily not paying attention ?

Unless the dealer intentionally mucked the cards then a momentary lapse of concentration is the only way the dealer could muck a live hand.

Everyone makes mistakes. No exceptions.

The thing with dealers is unlike most other people, when they make a mistake at work its really difficult for them to cover it up. There isn't a single person reading this thread who hasn't, at some point, done something accidentally wrong at work and covered it up because they thought they would probably get into trouble if the boss found out. Everyone makes mistakes from time to time. "Pilot error" is officially listed as the cause of about 75% of all aviation accidents.

BTW whilst its the dealers job to deal hands and not muck live cards, its also the players job to protect his hand at all times (its in the rules). So when a dealer mucks an unprotected hand, not only was the dealer not doing his job properly, but the player whose job it is to protect his hand was also failing to do his job correctly.

If the player had done his job properly, it makes it much harder for the dealer to make a mistake in his job.

Thats why they call it a "CARD PROTECTOR".I always warn people to know the rules of the tourney or game ther playing..It was correct ruling.and as for what if dealer is his friend?you should use the PROTECTOR for this reason and he cant screw you..Its YOUR job to protect your hand NOT the dealers

Just a note to add: as in the vid WVH provided, your cards are especially vulnerable when sitting next to the dealer. Be ultra vigilant when that's where you're positioned.

Thanks for the input, everyone. In the few times I've played live, I've never felt that it was an issue. I'm usually right on top of my cards so a dealer would really have to work to get them. Also, if I back away or need to think for an extended period (or pretend like I'm thinking), then I'll usually drop a chip on them. Although, after reading about the jerk who threw his cards across the table, it sounds like I have to protect my cards from other players as well.

I was just thinking, chips are light... if you slide cards with a chip on them into another pile of cards, the chip is just going to slide off. Maybe I'll start using a 10 pound barbell as a chip protector just to be safe.

Is there any limit on the size of chip protectors?