Blocked, banned and plundered

I've been playing at pacific poker the last 6 months or so. Just the other day I got kicked out while I was playing a sit&go-game.. Trying to log back in, it said the username no longer existed.. A fem minutes later I've got an e-mail that told me I was kicked out because they suspected collusion.
I had about 4000 usd on my account, after having won some 10kg's gntd and made ft at 50kg gntd a few weeks ago.
I've sent them 4 e-mails trying to get a specific reason why I got kicked out, but haven't got any explanation.
I've tried to figure out why I got kicked out, and I guess I've found a "reason".
I don't have a bankaccount that's these days, as I'm moving to another country to work, and is closing my account in my homecountry at the moment.
So for that reason I "transferred" some money to my much trusted friend to use his bankaccount to cash out some money. Pacific poker doesn't provide a "buddytransfer" or a gift-function different from many other sites, so we ended up sitting down at hu-tables to transfer a little amount of my winnings.
I had no idea that this would be a problem, as this wouldn't involve anyone else.. But now I can see that this is what's beeing called chipdump, and is not legal at most sites.. I've been extremely stupid and clumsy, but I never meant to do any illegal.. Have anyone been in the same position? Do I have any rights or can they just say they suspect collison and take all your money?

Any feedback would be much appreciated


regards,

kristian

Not to come to a rash judgement here, but every other instance that I've seen where a poster has made a post like that claiming that the poker room is ripping him off, the poster has been guilty of chip-dumping or collusion.

C'mon, this is something that's against the T&Cs of every poker site on the Internet - stop being stuck on stupid, and don't chip-dump!

Out of curiousity, generally speaking, what is the nefarious reason to engage in chip dumping? Is it a money laundering thing or something else? Is it related to collusion?

Call me stupid, but what do you earn by doing that? You only loose money in rake, a regular deposit through your account would be a lot cheaper, wouldn't it? Can someone explain to me what the idea is?
But I'd rather get some constructive feedback to help me out..

Thx Berica, thought it was just me beeing stupid

I would like to know what the problem is with doing this on a heads up table. I can see at a ring game you can't just fold to someone you know or raise all in with crap but heads up?

I know of people who have done this. Heck I have thought about before to loan someone some money online. Guess I am glad I never did.

From Pacific's T&C

(v) Chip-Dumping: Chip-dumping occurs when any player deliberately loses a hand in order to deliberately transfer his chips to another player who is in partnership with him. Any player who chip-dumps or attempts to chip-dump with any other player while using the Service may be permanently banned from using the Service or the Software or any other related services of the Company and their account may be terminated immediately. In such circumstances the Company will be under no obligation to refund to you any funds that may be in your account at such time.

...surely the problem sites have with chip dumping even on a HU cash table should be glaringly obvious to everyone?

Lo-Dog: Thx, that's exactly my point.
And every penny I made on that site comes from tournaments involving at least some hundred players, that makes it so unreasonable to just block my account and say they suspect collusion.. Extremely frustrating to start all over again, if I am to.. and with a fear that this could happen if I ever was to get a decent roll again..

If the problem they're trying to prevent is illicit money transfers, then I see the problem they'd have no matter the table or setting.

If the problem is collusion, then I don't get it from a heads up perspective.

Well they probably phrased their mail badly, this is Pacific support we're talking about.

Dorkus: Yes, I have to admit I didn't read the t&c very accurate before I started playing. I can see that there's no room for interpretatation of the rules.. But I still believe the purpose of this rule is to prevent that ppl take benefit of chip-dumping while playing with other players.. And I think that banning and confiscating my account is quite a harsh and trivial way of reacting, althought it's very beneficial to them..

Surely you need to collude to chip-dump, but it's all semantics. What is the issue is that anyone in this situation deserves everything they get in my opinion.

In 99.9% of times it is quite simply because they do not register their correct name and address when they sign up (for hundreds of different reasons which I wont bother going into). Then when they come to cashing out they get themselves into ridiculous situations.

Whatever lame excuse someone invents why they cant cash out it is inevitably for this reason.

To any new players reading.....Just register your correct details in the first place.

Ok, I see your point, but in my case there's not one. I registered with correct name and address. I've used my account to deposit and cashout a lot of times, last time a month ago. But my move to Sweden and closing of my bankaccount in Norway is actual..

Ok I am nit-picking at this point but I am sincerely curious, not trying to be argumentative:

I understand that chip-dumping in a heads up game is by its technical definition collusion, but if there's collusion between 2 players and they're the only ones in the game, who cares?

If I make a bet with my friend that we can each be the one to lose a SNG and we fire up a game at Poker Stars and we're each trying to play crappily, does that count? Or only if just one of us tries to lose?

I get it in any kind of full table setting (or any table with more than the colluders/chip-dumbers). But if I want to play heads up and lose on purpose, that's ok as long as the beneficiary is ignorant of it? What's the dilly yo?

Out of their 8 cashout options, you couldnt find one?

Does Sweden not have bank accounts that accept checks/bank drafts?

Man A steals credit card details & makes a deposit. Dumps chips on Man B (who he is in cahoots with). Man B cashes out. It's a problem thats for sure.

Thanks. Obviously I agree with this. I was wondering if there was a poker-related reason for this (in the case of collusion, it's an issue of fairness), rather than being a money laundering thing as I brought up in my post up above.

Well of course there is, but there are quite a number of formalities you'll have to go through when you're moving and start to work in a different country..
But I did not post this thread to defend a various of accusations, I was hoping for some constructive feedback that could help me out in this situation, I do believe some other players must have experienced the same thing.
I'd also think it'd be in the interest of every player to feel that they have some legal rights when playing these sites, and not risk having their account closed and confiscated all of sudden. I did not break the rules intentionally, and no innocent third part was harmed by what I did.

I think you'd be very lucky to get the money back. You broke the rules you agreed to when you signed up.

Might, sadly be a case of writing the money off.

In a word, no.

(I'm sure most of us do it all the time...maybe without knowing it )

Ok, welly. Np.
But still I don't even know if this is the reason why I got kicked out, since all they do is sending me an e-mail where they say they suspected collusion.
The "hu-transfer" happened like 12 days ago, and I got banned just two days ago.. Does it usually take that long, anyone who knows?

They have collusion software for this exact reason. Once it flags dubious betting patterns etc, then someone personally will go through the hands flagged. Once they are absolutely sure there is a problem, then you are gone.

Just curious was this a "Large" amount of money that was dumped ?

Ive done it before on ***poker, and never had any problems, having said that it was only once and in the region of $50. The reason, no player transfers, and id just transfered $$ to a pokerstars account for them.

Ok, thx for the info, Welly.
Tenbob: 3 x 200-dollars hu..

There are numerous things which the software looks for, one of the most obvious is fold equity. If you duck out of a hand with absolutely no fold equity, and esp. doing it a few times to same person....then you are going to get flagged.

What I mean by this is....(for example) raising to $199, then fold for the $1....there is obviously absolutely no fold equity here and therefore it is virtually always suspect if someone does it.

coolex....i'm off, so i wish you all the best. It was a painful lesson that's for sure.

I can assure that we practiced fold equity in a great manner..
A real expensive lesson, still praying though..
Thanks for your information and honest opinion, Welly!

I work in fraud at a credit card company. You dumped $600 and had $4000 remaining in your account. From a money laundering perspective that is a red flag. Once you reached a certain amount they would be required to file a report. They can ill afford to become a hotbed for money launderers - so they are going to stop it cold.

From the world I live in - can't say I blame them.

I felt it would be quite important to add my perspective here.

Beleive it or not, Credit Card Fraud, Chip dumping and collusion are ALL issues that happen more than you would think.

A total of 2% of our depositors have had their CC deposits flagged due to suspicious OR stolen cards used.

2% is actually a high amount, but as the regulars will know we havent been around too long and its a quite small test group - BUT interestingly 12 came in the same group.

The deal was, there were multiple email addresses whom signed up pretty much on the same day, with multiple accounts, and a depositor in the far east whom also signed up and deposited ( a few days earlier ) .

All of the depositors (using stolen cc's) were found to chip dump to the far eastern account, who literally played in 23 pots between the other 12 accounts, winning each (raise, re-raise and fold, then repeat), and then cashing out in the far east.

there could be many reasons to do this:

A) simply "cleaning" the funds from the stolen cards and withdrawing the money legally (in this case 10 of 12 were allready reported stolen)
B) transferring money for illegal purposes abroad without bank trails
C) payments for "suspicious" services rendered in a foreign country (I cant be specific, but think ping pong balls and you might know where we are going with this.
D) International wire transfers (since changes in international banking following 9/11) are actually quite tight. It might seem to the bank user that you simply fill in a form at your local bank, but it is FAR more in depth behind the scenes. In order to prevent money laundering each transfer is gauged based on both the transfer originator and receiver, and if there are any flags that pop up the transfer is blocked - examples of things that would do this would be people that are on conviction lists, people whom have priors for fraudulent crimes, people whom may work for the state in the country of origin or receipt etc. etc. Big Brother is Watching!
E) Quite simply, money. If I transfer $2000 from my spanish bank account to one in the US - I am charged on average $66 for the transfer, and lose 2% of currency value upon receipt into the destination bank. The charges are increased if your local bank does not have a direct account with a major US bank and it has to pass through an itermediary. Even including rake, you could effect this same transfer internationally for less than 10% of the cost. Also - bear in mind that every poker room pays for all of the banking costs related to transfers. It might not seem much per withdrawal, but over a month it becomes a serious chunk of change.

As to why this particular case has been flagged - and if it is indeed in error, then pacific will no doubt honour the withdrawal within a few days. If it is suspected that the user has colluded (ie. behaved suspisciously by working with other players on the table, possibly with very close IP ranges) or chip dumped (intentional movement of funds not related to poker activity) then the user will be unlikely to get the winnings until pacific have contacted his bank, or Neteller, and assembled copies of personal ID, proof of address etc.

Fraud is a serious issue and needs to be dealt with harshly by the poker rooms to maintain decent levels of service. There will be unlucky cases where totally genuine users are banned due to it, but poker site operators are not in the business of banning people for the fun of it, and as long as the client realises this and co-operates by providing requested documentation in a timely manner, then the issue will be resolved.

thanks for your time spent reading this, I realise I can go on a bit sometimes, but you would be surprised how often this crops up for me on a dailly basis, and I personally have had shit off one member (and of this forum beleive it or not!) whom refused to provide any documentation, after using a CC that had been reported as stolen. This member no longer posts here so dont bother with a witchhunt!

now If I had worded it like that I could have saved 10 minutes!!

lol - yea I just read yours and thought how nicely put but I didn't have the patience to go into that much detail.

But I was with you the whole way - I deal with this kind of stuff every single day!

its surprising just how often it comes up, but the network have 90+staff just for customer support and fraud detection. Im not sure of the ratio, but it does take them 2 hours to reply to support emails ;-)

Ty, Martin. It was a lot of reading , but it was very informative, and actually gave me some hope

No probs mate, Im sure your claim is genuine as I have to deal with the other ones dailly, and they are certainly not forthcoming with information!

You will be asked for two types of ID, proof of address, copy of bank info etc. but as long as you can provide all of this then you will get your money.

Pacific nor any other site wants this to happen, its just we have all got to be carefull with everyone to ensure the safety of the rest of our players.

Good luck, and let us know the outcome!

martin

Ty very much, Martin.
You've been very helpful
I promise I will

kristian