This is a bit of an experiment. There are several of us who play games beyond NLHE, which is clearly the most popular game here on the forums - thought it'd be fun to see if there's an interest in a general monthly discussion thread surrounding games outside of NLHE. The idea is to provide a central place where questions and discussions regarding games and strategy for all the other poker games could be found quickly.

If you're interested, pls post and subscribe!

And since I created the thread, I'll take the liberty of kicking off w a general discussion topic for PLO (please post any other discussion topics whenever you feel like, this isn't intended to be a PLO thread, I would've named it as such if I'd meant it that way).

We open in position and get 3bet - what are we looking for in table dynamics, villain types, stack sizes, and hand types when deciding whether to fold, call, or 4bet? What are we looking for postflop if we end up playing a re-raised pot?

PLO is just for people who love variance.

EDIT - Serious discussion topic: PLO players post your standard deviation in big blinds please.

would be interested in some basic strat discussion for O8, one of my 2010 goals is to lern and play some O8 cash and MTTs

Originally Posted by TopDonk

would be interested in some basic strat discussion for O8

NLO8/PLO8 or LO8?

Originally Posted by c9h13no3

PLO is just for people who love variance.

EDIT - Serious discussion topic: PLO players post your standard deviation in big blinds please.

Yecccchhhhhhh - did ya have to make me look that up? I was very happy not knowing that number.

97 over 70k hands (and yes, I'm currently in a downswing ). My lifetime stdev for NLHE (750k hands) is 45.

What's your stdev for limit games? Do you play limit outside of stud?

Originally Posted by TopDonk

would be interested in some basic strat discussion for O8, one of my 2010 goals is to lern and play some O8 cash and MTTs

I'm also interested - I'm pretty focused on PLO, but I play PLO8 and limit O8 occasionally.

Originally Posted by slycbnew

What's your stdev for limit games? Do you play limit outside of stud?

I don't know for stud since Poker Tracker Stud is a pretty horrible piece of software. However, for LHE at $1/$2-$3/$6 its in the 35 big blind range.

For NLHE 6-max my standard deviation was 135 bb :O. More than your PLO numbers, but I was probably playing as laggy as possible 200bb's deep so.... yeah.....

Originally Posted by slycbnew

I'm also interested - I'm pretty focused on PLO, but I play PLO8 and limit O8 occasionally.

I much prefer the limit game, but both games are pretty boring. Hell in Ray Zee's book on Omaha 8 he says in the "Why play Omaha 8" section that "Omaha 8 or better is not the most exciting game". That's the first thing he says when trying to convince you to play omaha 8.... sooo.... yeah....

Most of any omaha 8 game is going to be making nut hands and getting paid. PLO8 is a little different in that you can actually bluff, but at most limits bluffing is still a pretty minor consideration.

With the limit game, I feel like there's more opportunity for hand reading. If you can figure out who is going high, who is going low, it can lead to some good opportunities to jam some extra bets in the pot. Whereas with the big bet version of omaha 8, you're usually just making 2-way nut hands and shipping it.

Happy to discuss Stud 8 here as well. It's pretty much all I play (with some 7 game) these days.

SLY.. I have a suggestion sir.. I like the title.. But while surfing the net I made mistake with the thread, I clicked on this one thinking it was the regular monthly chat thread.. Simply because of the January in the title.

So to make a long story short my suggestion would be to make the title Beyond NLHE January Chat thread. Just makes the first word different.

I think its pretty simple and will help us reg's not misclick...

Thoughts? Stupid Suggestion?

Originally Posted by pokerchild69

SLY.. I have a suggestion sir.. I like the title.. But while surfing the net I made mistake with the thread, I clicked on this one thinking it was the regular monthly chat thread.. Simply because of the January in the title.

So to make a long story short my suggestion would be to make the title Beyond NLHE January Chat thread. Just makes the first word different.

I think its pretty simple and will help us reg's not misclick...

Thoughts? Stupid Suggestion?

Sent a pm to a mod asking for this...

It wasn't me but I did it anyway - let me know if it is not what you wanted.

Ahg I barely know how to play Omaha high... I emphasize barely.

Originally Posted by c9h13no3

I much prefer the limit game, but both games are pretty boring. Hell in Ray Zee's book on Omaha 8 he says in the "Why play Omaha 8" section that "Omaha 8 or better is not the most exciting game". That's the first thing he says when trying to convince you to play omaha 8.... sooo.... yeah....

Most of any omaha 8 game is going to be making nut hands and getting paid. PLO8 is a little different in that you can actually bluff, but at most limits bluffing is still a pretty minor consideration.

With the limit game, I feel like there's more opportunity for hand reading. If you can figure out who is going high, who is going low, it can lead to some good opportunities to jam some extra bets in the pot. Whereas with the big bet version of omaha 8, you're usually just making 2-way nut hands and shipping it.

Jeff Hwang's argument for limit O8 is the low variance combined w the ease of beating the game (i.e., most people who play limit O8 don't have a good strategy), which leads to good winrate possibilities combined w low br requirements - again not a ringing endorsement of how fun it is, but a good justification.

I agree w limit O8 being the more interesting game tactically. I've had some success in micro PLO8 cuz it seems like nobody ever believes you have the 2way nut, ship = instant gratification, but it's a long time between those hands...

I don't think this hand is worth posting in HA, just a quick check requested - rainbow flop, BTN is 26/7 others are around 80/10 half-stack donks, no brainer shove?

Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com
UTG: $15.00
MP: $14.55
Hero (CO): $25.00
BTN: $26.50
SB: $23.75
BB: $10.30
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is CO with 7♣ 8♠ 6♥ 9♠
UTG calls $0.25, MP raises to $1, Hero calls $1, BTN calls $1, 1 fold, BB calls $0.75, UTG calls $0.75
Flop: ($5.10) 7♠ 5♣ T♥ (5 players)
BB bets $4.85, UTG folds, MP calls $4.85, Hero raises to $24 all in,

Originally Posted by skoldpadda

Happy to discuss Stud 8 here as well. It's pretty much all I play (with some 7 game) these days.

Would love to see some Stud discussion, Hi or 8 - I'd eventually like to play HORSE competently, these are the biggest holes I have in HORSE.

If you have any suggested reading, pls let me know, I've read very little on Stud...

Originally Posted by slycbnew

I don't think this hand is worth posting in HA, just a quick check requested - rainbow flop, BTN is 26/7 others are around 80/10 half-stack donks, no brainer shove?

Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com
UTG: $15.00
MP: $14.55
Hero (CO): $25.00
BTN: $26.50
SB: $23.75
BB: $10.30
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is CO with 7♣ 8♠ 6♥ 9♠
UTG calls $0.25, MP raises to $1, Hero calls $1, BTN calls $1, 1 fold, BB calls $0.75, UTG calls $0.75
Flop: ($5.10) 7♠ 5♣ T♥ (5 players)
BB bets $4.85, UTG folds, MP calls $4.85, Hero raises to $24 all in,

Aren't you supposed to 3-bet these things preflop? Or is it too small for that? And being really bad at PLO hi, this looks pretty standard.

As far as playing HORSE competently, the first thing you should do is get good at limit hold'em. Its by far the most important of the games to be proficient at, especially at tournaments, and doubly important in live tournaments where they use a timer rather than a hand count before changing games.

Saw your LHE post in the monthly chat thread, PS is down, playing LHE now at UB lol

I'm interested, but more in the stud and stud8 formats. Will also try to join some mixed game discussions but don't play them often enough.

Thx for taking on DM's 'variant challenge'. I used to have more time but have not been on as often as I used to be and can't commit to being able to subscribe/contribute to specific threads on a near-daily basis.

I'll be more than happy to help when and where I can. Any kind of section reserved for non-nlhe discussions
is a welcome addition in my book ...

BTW - Stars is back up and running.
-----------------------------------

Originally Posted by c9h13no3

Aren't you supposed to 3-bet these things preflop? Or is it too small for that?

I still don't have a good feel for pf. I know I could've 3bet that, it's perfectly acceptable (8hi rundown would be more questionable maybe), but I wanted to play multiway cuz of the donks. Probably not the best place to do that tho, I'll hit too many non-nut hands. Hoping marginal, Tygran, BBB, or any of the other more exp PLOers wanders in here...

I'd love to get some O8 discussion going. What stakes would you all say I should be playing with a $100 roll for limit. I would assume for PL I should be in .02/.05 much like NLHE.

Originally Posted by TheWall

I'd love to get some O8 discussion going.

Great!

What stakes would you all say I should be playing with a $100 roll for limit.

I'll let someone else answer this one.

I would assume for PL I should be in .02/.05 much like NLHE.

Variance for PLO is much higher than NLHE. The most aggressive recommendation I've seen is 30bi's, the more conservative ones are 75-100bi's. So if you have a tight br requirement (i.e., you're not going to reload), $100 isn't enough for 5plo.

..

Originally Posted by nevadanick

Any kind of section reserved for non-nlhe discussions
is a welcome addition in my book ...

I think alot of us would be very happy to see more discussions of other games! It'd be fun to see this flourish!

Originally Posted by c9h13no3

Aren't you supposed to 3-bet these things preflop? Or is it too small for that? And being really bad at PLO hi, this looks pretty standard.

As far as playing HORSE competently, the first thing you should do is get good at limit hold'em. Its by far the most important of the games to be proficient at, especially at tournaments, and doubly important in live tournaments where they use a timer rather than a hand count before changing games.

completely agree with that, my limit holdem is horrible atm, something i am working on though

Txs Nevada for the HU...

OK I'm getting confused already... too many variants being discussed at once...

Starters are crucial in all these games, more than NLHE where position and stack sizes can make any 2 playable sometimes...

Before discussing postflop strategy should we not talk starters?

Omaha: Wraps, double suited high cards are good. AA or KK not so. Need six combinations strong, not just a good HE hand with rag rag...

O8: A2 or A3, with two other good cards hi or lo, again looking for double suited.

Stud8: I go by Todd's Platinum Rule: If not 3 cards that can lead to a scoop, don't play (depending on what's showing on table and your board of course).

More to it than that, but its a start (lol)

You might be able to pull off 02/05 but BRM states you should be playng 02/04 ( I guess that is 02/05 at some places) and I would suggest 01/02 multitable instead until you are really beating the games.

Originally Posted by TheWall

I'd love to get some O8 discussion going. What stakes would you all say I should be playing with a $100 roll for limit. I would assume for PL I should be in .02/.05 much like NLHE.

Originally Posted by Makwa

Txs Nevada for the HU...

OK I'm getting confused already... too many variants being discussed at once...

altho better than having one variant thread lost in 100 nlhe ....

Starters are crucial in all these games, more than NLHE where position and stack sizes can make any 2 playable sometimes...

Before discussing postflop strategy should we not talk starters?

Yes, i agree.

Omaha: Wraps, double suited high cards are good. AA or KK not so. Need six combinations strong, not just a good HE hand with rag rag...

O8: A2 or A3, with two other good cards hi or lo, again looking for double suited.

Stud8: I go by Todd's Platinum Rule: If not 3 cards that can lead to a scoop, don't play (depending on what's showing on table and your board of course).

More to it than that, but its a start (lol)

Never been much of a reader and found playing countless hours live made up for a lot of reading . Attended UHC (University of Hard Cards). Don't know if there is a 'rule' for it but I use a general application for stud hi of needing 2 cards that have high improvement potential, based on the visible board cards. The more of my 'outs' in play elsewhere on the boards, the less I am interested in joining a pot where improvement potential is minimal or reduced even WITH 2 of the 3 being good starter cards.

Hopefully we can all survive the mish-mosh of games discussed here, but at least so far it is void of nlhe comments ...

All forms of O, O8 and PLO will be of interest of course, but there are many HORSE players and 7/8-game players that haven't even found this thread yet. Stud, stud8 and razz have already 'mentioned'. We may need to live with weeding through the various forms and formats until CC admin agrees to give variant games some deserved separation ...

(If you know of anyone who plays non-nlhe games regularly and would be interested, please PM them this thread link, thx)
Beyond NLHE -January Chat Thread

All forms of interest are invited to participate here ... for now. (except nlhe ... )

This won't be an easy task folks. But some progress has been made.
Current game stats from the January calendar offer CC members FR's and CC buy-in events....

nlhe ...... 42
badugi.... 1
stud8..... 1
7-game.. 1
omaha... 1
8-game.. 1

Originally Posted by nevadanick

Never been much of a reader and found playing countless hours live made up for a lot of reading . Attended UHC (University of Hard Cards). Don't know if there is a 'rule' for it but I use a general application for stud hi of needing 2 cards that have high improvement potential, based on the visible board cards. The more of my 'outs' in play elsewhere on the boards, the less I am interested in joining a pot where improvement potential is minimal or reduced even WITH 2 of the 3 being good starter cards.

Stud Hi another variant. Playin that a lot these days. Always did in skul too (never went to class). Skul caf was our casino... remember Guts? Played lots of Stud hi lo also, but u had to declare and if u go Pig and lose one way u lose it all (sniff)...

My starters 7 Card Stud (varies with what table is showing; what outs available): Minimum 99 under or JJ split, 3 connectors hi to a str8, 3 to fl with 1 high card or A, str fl draws (of course). Almost never lo prs unless hidden, pref w hi card showing. No lo str8s.

Sometimes raise w hi card (over the table) showing to steal in position. Or scare card on 4th. But I getting ahead of myself...

Originally Posted by Makwa

Stud Hi another variant. Playin that a lot these days.

My starters (varies with what table is showing; what outs available): Minimum 99 under or JJ split, 3 connectors hi to a str8, 3 to fl with 1 high card or A, str fl draws (of course). Almost never lo prs unless hidden, pref w hi card showing. No lo str8s.

Sometimes raise w hi card showing to steal in position. Or scare card on 4th. But I getting ahead of myself...

Listing starting hand charts for the stud games is seriously lol retarded IMO (no offense). The cards that are out change things SOOOOO much. I open fold split jacks if there are 3 door cards higher than a jack behind me in stud hi for example.

Originally Posted by Makwa

Stud Hi another variant. Playin that a lot these days.

My ring/cash play has evolved exclusively back to stud hi. I prefer it over stud8 at the micro stakes since the players are not as laggy as the stud8 players who seem willing to cap a round on almost any 3 cards.

Micro stud hi has been a steady BR builder for me. Since I quit playing any nlhe ring games, I have NOT gone bust on any of my rolls built originally from mostly CC freerolls. A gr8 feeling, since I refuse to deposit online.

Originally Posted by c9h13no3

Listing starting hand charts for the stud games is seriously lol retarded IMO (no offense). The cards that are out change things SOOOOO much. I open fold split jacks if there are 3 door cards higher than a jack behind me in stud hi for example.

Use of the term "retarded" is offensive enough, thanks.

You did not read my post, just pounced on it. Of course starters are determined by what's showing. That's what I said:

"My starters 7 Card Stud (varies with what table is showing; what outs available):" True, I should have said "minimum" starters...

Of course fold Js w three overs behind, particularly if u see a raise coming. Txs.

Originally Posted by nevadanick

My ring/cash play has evolved exclusively back to stud hi. I prefer it over stud8 at the micro stakes since the players are not as laggy as the stud8 players who seem willing to cap a round on almost any 3 cards.

Micro stud hi has been a steady BR builder for me. Since I quit playing any nlhe ring games, I have NOT gone bust on any of my rolls built originally from mostly CC freerolls. A gr8 feeling, since I refuse to deposit online.

Both work well for me, are my bread and butter ring games, and you are right, hi lo can be more LAGgy, stud is tighter game (but more stealing lol). I know some of the regs from years back...

Ya micro (I hang between .50/1 and 1/2, have gone as high as 10/20). In my experience .25 .50 is way fishy and can pay off well, especially multitable.

I am comfortable 2-4 tables in each game. Most of the regs are also on more than 1; its sort of like one big game spread over 4 tables sometimes!!

Originally Posted by Makwa

You did not read my post, just pounced on it.

Yeah, I skim things too much. But the big point still stands that one of the biggest leaks new stud players have is they don't realize just how much hands change in value with different upcards.

And in my experience, you need to play tighter in the stud 8 games. Stud hi, chasing is more profitable since you're chasing the whole pot.

Originally Posted by c9h13no3

Yeah, I skim things too much. But the big point still stands that one of the biggest leaks new stud players have is they don't realize just how much hands change in value with different upcards.

And in my experience, you need to play tighter in the stud 8 games. Stud hi, chasing is more profitable since you're chasing the whole pot.

Ya gotta love those stud noobs....

I agree hi lo should be played way tight, using the Platinum Rule, but for some reason there seem to be more LAGgy chasers at 8. Hmmm... When I said Stud hi is a "tighter game" above I meant, like Nevada, that the players tend to be tighter, not that you always have to play tight.

Chasing is more worthwhile in Hi but... chasing is chasing... once I spot a true chaser (CS) I zero in and follow them... when to chase is an important topic in itself. It should certainly be rarely...

Originally Posted by Makwa

when to chase is an important topic in itself. It should certainly be rarely...

In stud hi, you're often getting odds to chase to the river. In fact, quite often 3 outs is enough to call on 6th street. For example:

A2_2 vs. K9_K. You're behind, but should chase to the river in most situations if the pot is heads up. So saying you should rarely chase is fairly wrong.