Beriac's 100 SNG Challenge

In honour of and homage to similar threads and ideas by Dorkus Malorkus and ChuckTs, I'm also starting a SNG challenge thread. As described in other threads (see How do you avoid tilt? (long story)), I have had success at poker as measured by my ROI but also struggles as measured by my bankroll which I have paid too close attention to at my peril. So... I am starting a 100 SNG challenge and a thread to follow it.

The SNGs: $15 Pokerstars 9-player turbos.

I've chosen this level because I like Pokerstars, am working off a bonus, and for reasons debated in Dorkus's temporarily hijacked SNG thread I prefer 9-player turbos (basically: full table to allow a few maniacs to bust out before I really start to play and thus increase my odds of cashing, turbo due to time constraints and because I feel I play well in that circumstance). I may switch to non-turbos at a later date if I find it detrimental.

The objective: track my progress, emphasizing not bankroll (focusing on bankroll is my problem!) but ROI, ITM%, and % 4th place finishes, using these as proxies for success in the SNG realm.

I plan to update the thread every day or 2 and/or every 5 SNGs or so. In addition, I will post a brief comment about each SNG that I play, including what I did right/wrong, why I finished where I did, and anything that I learned. This will help me focus my thoughts and force me to contemplate my own play as well as offer more colourful insight. I'll throw in a hand history periodically as well.

Questions, comments, suggestions, advice, and critiques are all welcome!

Otherwise, like the other interesting challenge/tracking threads that I subscribe to and read, I hope that my experiences help others.

Wish me luck!

Cheers,
Beriac

So I've tried my first 6 out of 100 SNGs, and I'm having good success so far at the $15 9-player turbos.

Note: I am 2-tabling these games to keep myself patient.

Generally, I found the $15 game a lot tighter than the $6 turbos I used to play, with more players left hanging around at levels 4 and 5 when the blinds start to matter. This is an indication of tightness, though, and the flip side is that my steals, bluffs, and any other poker "maneuvers" had waaaay more impact and credibility than at the lower stake game.

Here is a quick summary of the games:

Game #1: 1st/9. >> Nice start, no cards, played very few hands until the end, best hand each all-in

Game #2: 1st/9. >> Similar experience to previous match

Game #3: 5th/9. >> Won a few small pots, down to 5 handed, then blinds took their toll and have to take a coin flip, lost AQ vs. 55

Game #4: 3rd/9. >> Won 2 all-in controntations early with AA and KK, sat on it for awhile, lost a big hand when 88 was cracked by KQ, checked down with the other stacks to eliminate 4th place person and make 3rd, then my KJ all-in lost to A2

Game #5: 3rd/9. >> Won a key pot mid-way JJ vs. AQ, was able to steal many pots, lost an all-in A9s vs. Q7o, made it to 3rd but got blinded down and then had to call an all-in with garbage and lost

Game #6: 2nd/9. >> No cards, was getting blinded out when the big stack started to bully me, I called an all-in with a flush draw and 3:1 odds (he had been bluffing and I was winning anyway) and hit the flush to double up, quick and aggressive game, people went out quickly as I played tight, made it to 2nd that way, doubled up twice (once calling a pre-flop all-in with a better hand, once calling a post-flop all-in with me at 2 pair and him at flush draw), made a wicked dumb all-in call with 87s and halved my stack, eventually settling for 2nd

Stats update:
# Games: 6
%ITM: 83.3%
ROI: 139.1%
4th place: 0.0%

Conclusion:
Obviously, I am tickled with this start. I am also aware that I happen to be running well and these stats can't continue! But, I will say that I felt in my element at the $15 table -- able to outplay many of the players, more patient than average, yet my plays were at least recognized and respected. I've been starting very tight (using Harrington's starting hands), then loosening up as the blinds rose, but also playing more conservative as I approached the bubble, and playing decent 3-way and head's up once in the money.

At this point, other than the retarded head's up call I made in Game #6, I plan to keep doing more of the same and see how it pans out.

Turbo note: As per ChuckTs' comments, I do find that at this level with tight players, the blinds go up real fast and I am quickly praying for a great hand. So far, that has worked to my advantage, as I have waited for a great hand while multiple opponents have not (and thus eliminated each other to my benefit), but it's a concern I am monitoring.

Otherwise, steady as she goes!

Cheers,
Beriac

Note: edited for formatting

Good luck!

I'm definitely gonna enjoy reading your progress, Beriac.

EDIT: just wrote this when you pinned up your 2nd post there....wow! Very nice start, and of course your overall stats won't be this nice, it's always great to get a nice start

Well that works out great, since I have much enjoyed reading about yours.

Not to mention that you're a fellow Torontonian!!

no sht you're from toronto!? lol
nice...what parts? (not to hijack yet another thread )

I'm basically west end...davenport area

ChuckTs: I'm from Montreal originally, but I live in downtown Toronto now. The city gets a bad rap from the other Canadian towns (MTL, CAL, VAN) but it's totally unwarranted. I love this city.

Anyway...

My good fortune continues, as I relented and played 6 more games tonight and to my delight continued to do well and also have some fun games against quality opponents.

Game #7: 1st/9. >> Won an post-turn all-in bet early when my middle pair and ace kicker beat a semi-bluff runner runner straight draw, then a much bigger all-in battle when my post-flop trip 4s beat some kind of weird all-in post-flop continuation bet on a completely unpaired AK pocket, was then in a position to steal many blinds, chip leader when down to 3-handed and leveraged my big stack and let the two small stacks beat each other up, won an all-in against this really crazy raiser when I happened to wake up with KK, then won against the other stack when my 23 BB happened to pair up on the flop then we went all-in and it held up to win

Game #8: 2nd/9. >> Won a key all-in early on when my top 2 pair post-flop beat his bottom 2 pair, then flushed out when my A8s beat a small stack Aqo, then ANOTHER all-in against the next biggest stack as my 99 overpair beat his paid 6's post-flop when both of our pairs turned into trips on the turn and river, then hilariously a once we're 3-handed a dude goes all-in who I've seen go all-in again and again in the other match I'm playing at the same time so I call (legitimately I think) with A6 and out-draw his 99, and beat out the last guy with a chip lead and a few coin flips, lost a big all-in hand to the small stack when he trapped me with trips, but I trapped him with 2 pair shortly after to retake the lead, back and forth back and forth and finally I lose this one after a quality and enjoyable heads up match

Game #9: >> Pockets 6's turned trips on the flop lend me an early lead, then I lost a big hand when my unraised BB ace pair-low kicker turned into a big chip drainer before I finally folded, then the big stack started picking off other guys and reducing the field, in this one I had to fight the short stack fight, eventually I got caught on a steal with Q9o and went out in 6th

Game #10: >> Pocket Q's that were never contested by an overcard on the board resulted in a big stack early, continued to play conservatively as the other stacks butted heads, occasionally raising callers of my own BB to establish a reputation for feistiness (I then had my BB folded to me several times), then it was Foldfest 2006 for the next umpteen hands, eventually though I got ground down to a tiny little stack and then desparately went all in with K2 against AA and sucked out a 2-pair win (rigged!), after trying to checkdown eliminate others for quite awhile I am reduced to an all-in with KQ which I lost to 77, finishing 4th

Game #11: >> Lost a few pots post-flop, in particular one where I raised on the button with 88 and saw 2 undercards and a K on the flop -- opponent went all-in so I felt I had to fold this despite the flat call pre-flop, needed a coin toss to get back to average chip stack, a QQ against a short stack increased that stack, lose a few pots down to a cagey medium stack and am left 4th out of 4 remaining, finish 4th after my A7 is called by KQ and busted... which arguably I should have been folding down anyway despite being the 4th place stack

Game #12: >> Won some small pots early, then waited waited waited, made a good read and called an aggressive player's A2 all-in with my 33 which held up, win a coin toss to make 2nd place, big stack is trappy guy who pulls trips to my top pair/top kicker and plays me for all I'm worth!

First off, I don't expect this luck to continue nor do I think that I am somehow a >45% ITM player, let alone a 67% ITM player. Let's wait for some real data to come in. In the meantime, I'm just happy to recover some of the earlier bankroll losses I was complaining about... not that this is the objective!

Second, lessons learned: I think mostly I had a good balance of patience and aggressiveness going, and it's easy to second guess oneself heads up considering how many coin tosses one has to take, but I do think I could have played the second heads up match a tad better.

The only hole I'm really spotting here so far is that I have been on the wrong end of a coin toss a couple of times (usually when I'm short stacked, so this is a tougher quandry to solve). The 4th place losses are something to watch but with only 2 finishes worse than 4th so far I can't really look at it as a leak so far. Turbo is taking its toll but I'm not convinced it's a net drag just yet.

Stats update
# Games: 12
%ITM: 66.7%
ROI: 96.9%
4th place: 16.7%
To be continued... Comments welcome as always.

PokerStars: In my one indulgence into poker shill merchandise, I used some of my Pokerstars FPP points accumulated to purchase a Pokerstars black hoodie. Call me a loser but I will take it to my live weekly game and intimidate! Now I will have to get a Pokerstars baseball cap and a pair of mirrored sunglasses and I will be good to go.

Note: edited because I forgot to include the stats

Looks like your doing good. This is a great read, cant wait till the next update.

PokerStars: I want the pokerstars beanie...someday!

Ok I feel the need to point out that my second update is riddled with the sort of typos I do not normally make, but unfortunately I don't appear to be able to edit it anymore. I blame the sangria I had on my patio with dinner.

Don't worry, don't worry... the order was poker -> drinking -> typo-riddled post, not drinking -> poker -> typo-riddled post

I guess I always thought I could handle myself behind the keyboard even after a couple of drinks, but I will try not to drink and post in future!

Seems to be mostly legible at least...

ROI = Return on Investment i presume. Does that mean you've lost 4% or have made 96% profit (i.e. doubled your outlay)? What time of day are you playing these, i'm currently on the same games, but I play 3pm EST to 5.30ish

Yes, sorry I probably should have included definitions.

ROI = % return on investment
%ITM = % of time I place in top 3 out of 9, in the money
4th place = exactly what it sounds... just counting the instances to track my bubble play

I'm not sure what the standard is for this metric, but I calculate it net of the rake, so yeah it would mean 96% profit in this instance -- which seems to make sense with finishes of 1/1/1/2/2/2/3/3/4/4/5/6 in 12 games. That number will obviously come waaaaay down, and will probably make more sense when it's in the 10% range for instance (I am assuming and hoping that my play and commentary on this site isn't so bad that people would assume I'm losing 90% of my outlay!). To calibrate, if my ROI is 0%, it means I'm breaking even with the rake.

That's work time for me most days. I'm mostly evenings EST and then at random on the weekend.

How are you finding the $15 turbos? Any thoughts you'd like to share on what you've found works, doesn't work, etc?

Just played the one in this current experiment - I usually play $10 and $20 H2H SnG's at Pokerstars - have won 10 out of last 12 to build up a good bankroll from nothing. I think "turbo" puts people off, but the blind structure is fine in my opinion - not as fast as the Turbos on Titan or Prima. I came 3rd in mine, didn't get a pair until the 67th hand, but was chip leader with 3 left - lost 2 all-ins, once when behind preflop, once when ahead but they are definately winnable if the cards run fair.

Good to know that someone else finds the turbos manageable. I agree, even the turbos still often take 45 minutes to do, which is not totally insubstantial. And the players get even moooore impatient, going all-in out of position with a 10x BB stack and an A2o.

Alright, things have taken a sour turn in this update. Maybe you can work with me to help figure out if it's a bad run (which I couldn't complain about... I had such a good run earlier).

Game Summary

Game #13: 6th/9. >> Folded the first 20 hands, eventually using that equity to steal some blinds around the mid level, lost a big coin flip when I called a small stack all-in with my 66 hoping for A-low and got A8, finally my QQ got busted by A7

Game #14: 4th/9. >> Won some chips early when I called my SB with garbage and flopped a low set, then lost a pot to a dude drawing an to an up and down straight draw but with just brutal odds (bad beat I guess), tried a steal mid-level but got called and still won the hand and some chips, went bust in 4th all-in when my A5 got capsized by A2 (!!!) by the same friggin guy who busted me in the last game (going on at the same time)... grrr!

Game #15: 7th/9. >> Basically fold the first 30 hands with trash, finally around the mid-levels I notice a large stack raising like every hand so finally I get A7 and re-raise him all in only to lose to AT -- my first sub-6th place finish in this experiment

Game #16: 6th/9. >> I was pretty retarded this one and called down an open-ended straight draw, then made all those chips back when my AJ flopped 2 pair and doubled me up, QQ comes 10 hands later and adds to my stack, then lose some to a small stack's all-in when my 33 fails to hold up against AK, after this I am forced to try to steal with marginal hands and lose when my KJ is called and beaten by A9

Game #17: 6th/9. >> Trips on the river but in a small pot gives me a good headstart, then I spend some of that later drawing to non-flushes, the journey ends in 6th place around mid-level when KQ fails to pick up against 22

Game #18: 7th/9. >> Zzzzzzzzzzz trash after trash after trash, oh wait there's AA gee I hope everyone folds oh look my wish comes true (actually I won about a third of my stack slowplaying a safe board against a very reluctant player), the very next hand I limp late with 88 to find a board of K8398 against someone who stayed with me pretty passively with K4 -- double up, then lose a chunk of that when my BB 85 finds a flop of 833 and I lose a bunch to a small stack with 88, win a nice pot with 88 later against a short stack AK, called what I thought was a steal attempt (he had 66) with KQ and lost that hand, then with my own small stack I am called all-in by a dude with 54 who outdraws my 96 by hitting 2 pair

Stats update
# Games: 18
%ITM: 44.4%
ROI: 31.3%
4th place: 16.7%
My stats are still strong, but ITM and ROI are rapidly falling to earth and 4th place is setting off some alarms. Lots of time to turn it around before I go negative, but no time to dilly dally!

Conclusion
So... which of the following do you think occurred:

(1) I am playing too tight early and so I don't have the stack to compete later... explains my lack of 8th/9th place finishes and abundance of "I started to get blinded down and had to go all-in and then lost" situations.

(2) I am playing too many speculative hands early... probably not enough info to decide here but I think I've been good from this perspective, folding garbage and when I decide to take a flyer on a flop, folding pretty quickly if it misses and not committing myself. 'Cept that 85 on my BB.

(3) Just bad luck, forget about it.

(4) Mostly okay play, but ultimately losing too many matches on the "wrong side of the coin flip" the drawing side and not doubling up enough with dominating hands (ie, not being patient enough to wait for better all-in opportunities than those I take).

I am tempted to think it's a mix of 3 and 4.

After about 4 of these games and especially after 6, I started to slightly tilt. I always seemed to get busted when I was on the pair side of the coin flip, and seldom did the busting when I was on the overcards side. But taking the time to think about it for this "blog" thread has been very helpful. Now I'm hoping for some feedback!

Staying away from the tables will be easy, tonight... sort of. As I have a live game to play, $10 buy-in with beers and buddies, I can get some recklessness out of my system (or show 'em what I've learned from Mr. Harrington!!).

Cheers,
Beriac

this is where i have to come in and say something about the turbos again...
most of what i see here is losing coinflips and all ins. Too much gambling going on! That's the problem with turbos IMO, but i have to admit, i caved and ended up playing one today as part of my sng challenge.
6-seater, $10 and i placed 2nd. HU, villain dominated me, but overall i played well and dealt with the high-speed game alright.
My comments before were based on my impression that they went up much faster than they actually do - i hadn't played a turbo in quite a while.

They do still (again IMO) have the bad characteristics i mentioned previously, but not to the extent that i thought. Either way i've decided to switch up between the turbos and the normal-speed games.
The fact is that with $10 and $20 sngs, the availability is really not that great at titan. I sometimes find myself sitting there seeing the $10 turbos fill up and waiting for the normal paced ones to fill for 20 minutes.
Anyways i'm just going to play whatever's most available out of the $20, $10 and $10 turbos from now on.

I hope your luck turns around for you beriac; i think the poker gods are evening your luck out after that incredible start of yours

I'm glad to hear you've 1/2 changed your mind on the turbos Chuck, because I respect your opinion. I agree that they add a random element (which I am perhaps being punished by right now), but certainly there is room for skill to emerge.

Gotta mention... Pokerstars SNGs of all types fill up pretty quick. No wonder too, 82,000 players online right now.

Quick mention of the results of my live game today: I survived with a full chip stack from 7 players down to 5. Big stack was bullying in force, at one point he throws out a big raise and the short stack responds with an all in which the big stack folds to. Next hand, he raises again and I am dealt AKo. I raise all-in (where normally I'd just raise it to get some action), but I figure he'll call out of frustration from the last hand. He does, throws down AT, and the board comes: J... 5... 5... 2... T.

Frig.

I love poker

Re-examining my game notes, I think I need to make a few tweaks to my strategy:

#1) While I will continue to limp in from late position with speculative hands at early levels (low pocket pairs, suited connectors, etc), I'm not going to call anything more than a min-raise (and even then only if it's called by several before me and I am last or second to last to act) and I will be more judicious about calculating and reacting to my pot odds if I flop a draw. This should hopefully help prevent losing ~20% of my stack to speculation and make me less desperate to double up around mid-level.

#2) This, I think, is my biggest leak right now: getting impatient around mid-level blinds with 4-6 players left when my M reaches ~5 or so (call it a 1000 chip stack and 75/150 blinds). I've been trying to steal and then having to call all-in re-raises with hands like A7 and KQ. I think this is probably EV- and I need to wait for higher aces or mid-level pocket pairs before pulling this crap. Hopefully this should result in a few more 3rd place finishes as I creep in having folded marginal hands, a few more top finishes as I win horse races with my better hands, and probably the consequence will be a few 4th place finishes where I was too patient and ended up going all-in when the blind was half my stack and I had 95o.

I think partly my bad run is a luck thing, but I think these tweaks will help. Thoughts?

Also, I will add that I have just become silver on Pokerstars. Has anyone played the silver Saturday freeroll? How many players does it get?

I know it's stating the bleedin' obvious, but you've got to try and avoid getting into this position in the first place! Of course you'll get bad beats and cold cards, but if you often find you're behind after the first 5 or so players have busted out then it looks like you're playing too tight. Try being more active early - dont "limp" in with speculative hands in early levels, raise with speculative hands in early levels. Let people know you're there, win some hands, lose some hands, make continuation bets etc. Let them see you raise out of position with A5 (when blinds are 10/20). When you do get your big hands then, you can profit for them - of course you can overdo it, but if you play too tight early, you are forced to play the same hands i suggest, but when the blinds are much higher. Of course you can overdo it, but if you fold 20 times then raise when you get AA, you're not going to win an awful lot.

If you think you are more suited to the "take your time" approach, then have a few games on the non-turbos, as that would seem more suited to that style.

Interesting observation. I have been toying with that switch. I'm actually not the most patient player by rule, but I believe in playing the opposite style to the table, and turbos tend to attract the yahoos. I often witness battles of A5 vs. KJ all-in pre-flop early on at these tables, so my strategy has been to wait and let 2-3 of these guys go bust then start playing, on the idea that "survival" is the order of the day and the early maniacs are making a donation to the cash pool for the survivors. Getting involved aggressively early on with questionable hands, I find I often just get re-raised by these dudes and up being on one side or the other of the above battles I mentioned.

I've also watched a few guys who are regulars at the tables I play who have high ROI's over many games, and they seem to play similar -- if not more patient -- strategies.

But a big part of me agrees with what you say. I believe tight/aggressive still works online at relatively low stakes, the question is what kind of SNG table is it most suited for --> full table, short table, or turbo.

Alright. After getting the same comment numerous times ("duh... hey dufus, stop playin' them turbos!"), I did a bunch of research on the subject and I have decided to do just that!

I've been playing turbos much longer than this brief challenge thread, and have hundreds of histories to work from, so I don't think I'm jumping the gun. The reason for my move:

(1) Turbos are inherently more of a coin flip. First, that means more variance -- see this thread for some evidence of that. Second, it means any skill level I might have or be trying to build is mitigated by the large luck component.

(2) For similar reasons, my game benefits less and I improve less by playing them. There is less post flop play, and the game quickly becomes all-in/fold.

Soooooo... I'm going to re-start my 100 SNG challenge at a non-turbo game, probably at the $10 level or so. This thread has been very helpful to me, not just in getting me off the damn turbos, but also in making me think about my game and getting some good comments on it. Thanks everyone for that!

And no, this is not a cop-out to reset my stats. Despite my awful, awful run at the end I still finished nicely positive.

Cheers,
Beriac