Bankroll question/problem, such...

Me and a couple of my friends have been piddling around online poker for the ladder part of 4 years now. We've always had the starting (or restarting nowadays lol) bankroll of about 50 bucks each time we want to play. (not collectively, individually).

Usually we will get up a really good amount in a pretty short amount of time (up to about 200 in like 2 weeks), and about 1/2 of us have no clue about bankroll management and play like the .25/.50 NLHE table and do very well. Then of course you know how it goes, they go on a cold streak and lose a damn good amount of it and drop down to the really low stakes.

This is where the problem lies..they cant seem to win in the low stakes. This boggles my mind. I've also been having the same problem trying out a strict style of bankroll management. I was playing the 5.50 SnG's on FTP, and when i started reading about how strict you should have your bankroll management, i started playing the 2.25 SnG's and i cant seem to win at all. Just in this reload, i went up to $90 in less than 15 hours playing the $5.50 SnG's, and then i went on that cold streak and got back down to about 50 again, which is when i found the bankroll management stuff. And i've been playing the 2.25's and i have only placed in 1 of them, and im now down to 15 bucks.

Any thoughts or comments please.

Here is some Bankroll Charts From ChuckTs, or it might have been AlonIsper. I am drunk right Now so I hope this works!!!

Sammy pass that rye over here!

That was AI's chart btw. Not sure where that summabitch is anyways...

Same thing happens with me! I will deposit 50 dollars on full tilt, get it up to about 200, then move to higher stakes and start dropping down. Its so frustrating, and im not doing anything wrong, just bad luck.

i think the worst part, for me at least, is that i want to get into some other games like stud and omaha, but i dont have the bankroll to do it without worrying so much.

i dont agree with the 20-50 buy ins but again ive only been playing 1 month full time.. I think 3-4 buyins per multi table is sufficient.. you CANT go down lower if you play tight agressive and not push with TPTK.. what you will lose your money on is with AA vs set, mid set vs top set and KK vs AA.. and the odds of those burning 5 buyins consecutively are very low..

The problem with switching limits is that alsmost every limit the average play is different. I'll use the 1 table SnG's on Stars as an example.

$1...pretty loose/passive
$5...even mix
$10...Very tight
$20...a lot looser than $10 but there's more skill

You need to change your play some for each limit and you need to expect a little losing streak to start while you tune your game to that limit.

Ring Games are the same...I've played all the way from the penny tables to $50 buy-in. The play is different at each stake so you need to expect a loss while adjusting.

That's just peachy Sammy, no wonder I can't get there from here. Since I'm commited to NOT send a dime to any poker site as of yet.

At least PS has the $0.10 tourneys and I CAN build up with my crappy stack of a whopping $1.47.

Sammyv1 said:

Here is some Bankroll Charts From ChuckTs, or it might have been AlonIsper. I am drunk right Now so I hope this works!!!

Click to expand...

can we sticky this post, not the thread just the post. This question gets asked on a daily basis and this chart is very very very good and simple to read. Maybe copy it and paste it in new thread titled Bankroll Managment guidlines. Dont have to put it in this section maybe the strategy section.

stormswa said:

can we sticky this post, not the thread just the post. This question gets asked on a daily basis and this chart is very very very good and simple to read. Maybe copy it and paste it in new thread titled Bankroll Managment guidlines. Dont have to put it in this section maybe the strategy section.

Click to expand...

Well i think something should be done somewhere and a bit more clarity would be a bonus.
My reasons for saying this is because the advice i was given several weeks ago when i was asking about correct bank roll management and the general rule of thumb that should be used certainly didnt correspond with these charts.
More precisely the NL ring games, and this was after i specifically asked the adviser if the advice given was from personal experience or general rule of thumb management.
Now that i look at this chart and if i am to believe it is accurate, correct, and so on, it means i have been using incorrect BRM for the last 4-5 weeks.

Mojomax747 said:

Well i think something should be done somewhere and a bit more clarity would be a bonus.
My reasons for saying this is because the advice i was given several weeks ago when i was asking about correct bank roll management and the general rule of thumb that should be used certainly didnt correspond with these charts.
More precisely the NL ring games, and this was after i specifically asked the adviser if the advice given was from personal experience or general rule of thumb management.
Now that i look at this chart and if i am to believe it is accurate, correct, and so on, it means i have been using incorrect BRM for the last 4-5 weeks.

Click to expand...

Im the one that gave you the advice so where did it differ?


the chart suggests 20-50 buy ins per level which is fine, minimum is 20 buy ins per level.
the way I read it is exactly like I told you, that you can move up when you reach 20 buy ins of next level but you have to move back down when you drop below that 20, there is no max you can have at any level because if you are crushing a level there is no reason to move up.

Here


it is between 10-20 buy ins so if you just lose 1 single buy in I think you can continue to play your $50 nl game. If you start losing more and drop close to the next buy in max which would be $500 then you need to drop down. So say you played and had 1k and dropped it to $600 - $700 now you should evaluate and see if you think you are being outplayed or have just gotten unlucky. but if you drop that down to $500 you should drop down till you rebuild it to 1k again and try again....rinse...repeat.

And here.



Originally Posted by Mojomax747
Yes that would make a lot of sense and would normally have been enough for me to now understand the concept. But now i am more confused then ever, this is the first time i have read the rule of thumb to be between 10-20 buy-ins. I have read a lot on this forum about br management and 10-20 concept has never been mentioned in anything i have read before. Are you talking about your br management or the general rule of thumb br management?

You said.


not really sure what you are asking so will just give general explanation and I will hope that it is good if not ask more specifics.

Bankroll management is good because it is a way to manage your bankroll so It is very very unlikely you will go broke. So lets say you have a starting bankroll of $500.

now with $500 you can sit at $25 nl seeing as you have 20 buy ins total, at $200 you would have 20 buy ins for a $10 nl game so right now you can comfortably sit at $25 NL right? Ok so lets soo you hit a really really sick run and drop that from $500 to $300, now you still have 12 buy ins at $25 NL and you can still sit at that game. The second it drops below $200 you have to move down to $10 NL and rebuild it to at least $250 or more and then you can move up again. If you manage to grind it up to 1k you can move up to $50 NL and the instant it drops around $500 you have to move back down.

that is how you can be sure you will never go bust by moving up and down levels that reflect your bankroll.

Mojomax747 said:

Here


it is between 10-20 buy ins so if you just lose 1 single buy in I think you can continue to play your $50 nl game. If you start losing more and drop close to the next buy in max which would be $500 then you need to drop down. So say you played and had 1k and dropped it to $600 - $700 now you should evaluate and see if you think you are being outplayed or have just gotten unlucky. but if you drop that down to $500 you should drop down till you rebuild it to 1k again and try again....rinse...repeat.

Click to expand...

the chart is on the max side with it being 20-50, this is to insure you never go broke or makes it very difficult to go broke if you are a decent player.

BUT

there is nothing wrong with playing with 10 buy-ins but it is much more dangerous then playing with 20 obviously. If it is a brand new level for you then I would strongly recommend the 20 buy ins. Like take me for instance, I have played $100 NL a lot online and im putting on 1k tomorrow and I would have no problem playing that level if I wanted to. The thing is if I hit a bad run I have to realize that I have to have the discipline to get out of that game.

there are a lot of people though that would say 10 buy-ins is ok to sit and then there are some that say only 20. I personally dont mind seeing you take a shot at 10 buy-ins if and only if you have the discipline to get out of the game if you start running cold. I should of made that more clear during 1st post and I apologize for not.

I think the 20-50 is actually a little too much, I think 20-30 should be enough for the level but as for this chart it is very good for a new player to use. I think if you are more experienced player you can swing the 10- 20 or 20-30.


edit from your edit: again I think 10 buyins is the bear minimum you can sit with, I should of elaborated on that more. I'm deciding to play $25nl with 1k by choice but I could sit at $50NL with 1k but not $100 becaues 1k is only 10 buy ins. If I were to make up to say $1500 I would have no problem sitting at $100 NL but would drop down if I came close to 1k again. These charts are good guidelines for you but deciding to take shots is really up to the player. I dont mind people taking shots with about 15 buy ins as long as they can drop down.

with my 1k I might take shots at $50 NL or so and might even at 1.5 take couple shots at $100 because I know I will drop down if I get close to one thousand

stormswa said:

Im the one that gave you the advice so where did it differ?


the chart suggests 20-50 buy ins per level which is fine, minimum is 20 buy ins per level.
the way I read it is exactly like I told you, that you can move up when you reach 20 buy ins of next level but you have to move back down when you drop below that 20, there is no max you can have at any level because if you are crushing a level there is no reason to move up.

Click to expand...

I would think you can see the confusion i am experiencing when each post differs from the last.
Maybe i am not clear anymore, i think dorkus mentioned his strict discipline in BRM and maybe he might be able to clear this up for me.

Mojomax747 said:

I would think you can see the confusion i am experiencing when each post differs from the last.
Maybe i am not clear anymore, i think dorkus mentioned his strict discipline in BRM and maybe he might be able to clear this up for me.

Click to expand...

from Basic Bankroll Management



Basic Bankroll Management by Fox on 12/7/2005 14:53
This article is provided by pokerfox.net. If you like what you read we have a lot more just like it inside!

With the number of questions on the forums here at pocketfives about bankroll management, I thought some basic information about bankroll management was needed. This is an adaptation of an article from my website at PokerFox.net - Home, and it is a good example of the kind of thing we do there.

It has occurred to me recently that many people have questions about bankroll management that aren't easily answered with just a simple number or a formula, so this article should give you some ideas about how to think about your bankroll for yourself. Hopefully this information will allow you to come up with a safe and effective bankroll strategy and prevent you from going broke.

I'll start with a few numbers for reference. These aren't exact numbers, but they are a good place to start, and for our purposes they will do just fine. Below there are three columns.

The numbers in the "Pro" column are for players who derive the majority of their income playing, and would be devastated financially if they lost their bankroll to a bad run of cards. Using these figures will yield a less than 1% chance of going broke over the course of a lifetime of play assuming that you are a solid winning player.

The numbers in the "Protected" column are for a bankroll that you are going to attempt to make a serious income from. If your bankroll will be tough to replace if you lose most of it then you should use these numbers as a starting point.

The "Unprotected" column is for people who are willing to play a little looser in an attempt to build a bankroll, and for those of you who could easily replace your bankroll if you were to lose it. Keep in mind that using these figures does yield a significant possibility of going broke or having to drop down levels if you get off to a rough start. An average winning player (if there is such a thing) would have a less than 10% chance of going broke if they use the unprotected number and don't remove any money from their bankroll until it is built up to a safer level. If you use the unprotected column as a long term guide, and pull money out any time you get significantly above that number, you will almost certainly go broke at some point.

this is me, this is why I have always used the 10% rule, if this isnt you im sorry for answering your question from my point of view and not asking you what your goal is 1st.




to get chart go to the link.


here is the part of the chart on NL


[SIZE=-1]the numbers below are in order in Pro, Protected and unprotected.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]Hold'em [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]550 Big Bets [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]400 Big Bets [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]200 [/SIZE][/SIZE][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]Big Bets[/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]NL Holdem [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]45 Buy Ins [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]25 Buy Ins [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]15 Buy Ins[/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]SNG [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]65 Entries [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]45 Entries [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]20 Entries[/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]MTT [/SIZE][/SIZE][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]200 Entries [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]100 Entries [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]40 Entries[/SIZE][/SIZE]

im guessing you are the blue column at the time I posted my origional post I was in black section so that is how I answered.

The concept has always been very clear to me right from the start.
Moving up and down at the correct time has never been a problem for me to grasp, i mean who wouldnt understand that.
As soon as it was explained to me it became very clear.
The confusion i had was to do with 10-20 buy-ins or 20-sky is the limit buy-ins.
I did originally clearly ask if your advice was from a personal prospective or a general one.
You advised me in general terms according to your own post.

It is clear to me now that you were talking about your own personal way of managing your bank roll which is totally fine if that is what you are comfortable with though the stringent BRM users might frown upon it.

That is the confusion i am talking about because in all fairness, the advice you gave me was not a general rule of thumb BRM policy.
It was your personal BRM policy but you never once said to me that was the case.

You say it now of course and that is fine by me but the point is, i was never looking for anyones personal take on it and i made that very clear on more than 1 occasion.

I do appreciate your advice on the matter though because you freely gave it and took the time to do so.
If you look back over what we spoke about in the other thread you will clearly see i had concerns and voiced them.

When freely offering important advice such as BRM etc though, i think it is very crucial to be clear and concise about the whole thing otherwise people will be misinformed on a regular basis.

Just taking the time to fully read the question and doing the same when giving a valued answer can often save on a lot of confusion.

Mojomax747 said:

The concept has always been very clear to me right from the start.
Moving up and down at the correct time has never been a problem for me to grasp, i mean who wouldnt understand that.
As soon as it was explained to me it became very clear.
The confusion i had was to do with 10-20 buy-ins or 20-sky is the limit buy-ins.
I did originally clearly ask if your advice was from a personal prospective or a general one.
You advised me in general terms according to your own post.

It is clear to me now that you were talking about your own personal way of managing your bank roll which is totally fine if that is what you are comfortable with though the stringent BRM users might frown upon it.

That is the confusion i am talking about because in all fairness, the advice you gave me was not a general rule of thumb BRM policy.
It was your personal BRM policy but you never once said to me that was the case.

You say it now of course and that is fine by me but the point is, i was never looking for anyones personal take on it and i made that very clear on more than 1 occasion.

I do appreciate your advice on the matter though because you freely gave it and took the time to do so.
If you look back over what we spoke about in the other thread you will clearly see i had concerns and voiced them.

When freely offering important advice such as BRM etc though, i think it is very crucial to be clear and concise about the whole thing otherwise people will be misinformed on a regular basis.

Just taking the time to fully read the question and doing the same when giving a valued answer can often save on a lot of confusion.

Click to expand...

I agree I gave bad advice.

after I wrote up this last post the one before this I even private messaged someone in embarasment of the bad advice I gave earlier.

I guess the key take away here is that as a forum, we don't preach dangerous or risky BR mgmt. We promote secure BR mgmt standards/techniques that are meant to protect the player from going broke due to variance.

So in terms of NLH, that security really means a minimum of 20 buy-ins (5% rule). All of the charts here above are based on the minimum amounts needed for BR protection and go up from there. Obv there is no rule anywhere that says you can't manage you BR anyway you want, but CardsChat is learning forum and we do get inexperienced players looking for help. When people come here looking for bankroll mgmt help (or make posts where they are obv playing above their heads), we really need to guide them to the safe way of protecting their bankrolls. It's like trading stocks, no one with any understanding or common sense would open a new online portfolio with no experience in any form of trading and start off trading futures/options. That would be extremely high risk.

Of course it is perfectly acceptable to discuss other BR mgmt ideas (like 10 buy-ins or such), but it should be clear to the reader which things are the safer methods and which are higher risk.


Edit: I was apparently typing up this reply while the posts above were taking place. Sorry for any duplication, etc.

Jack Daniels said:

.


Edit: I was apparently typing up this reply while the posts above were taking place. Sorry for any duplication, etc.

Click to expand...

obviously JD I did not steer him in a dangerous bankroll direction, hell look at my title!!!!

stormswa said:

obviously JD I did not steer him in a dangerous bankroll direction, hell look at my title!!!!

Click to expand...

You know, if you'd stop posting directly in front of me on these things it would seem a lot less like I'm constantly talking about you.

Well its all cleared up now and stormswa and i briefly spoke of it in private messaging.
But thats what these forums are all about right?
Trying to help each other out in the best way we can, giving and receiving advice and learning from it all.

Mojomax747 said:

Well its all cleared up now and stormswa and i briefly spoke of it in private messaging.
But thats what these forums are all about right?
Trying to help each other out in the best way we can, giving and receiving advice and learning from it all.

Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more.

Sammyv1 said:

Here is some Bankroll Charts From ChuckTs, or it might have been AlonIsper. I am drunk right Now so I hope this works!!!

Click to expand...

I have heard Howard Lederer Mention that 300x the BB for Limit is the min more than once. I think those who use the 10-20 suggestion which would translate into 100 -200 for limt are setting themselves up. What happens when you hit a really bad streak. If it happens for Professionals it will happen with others players even more. Having 20 times the buy in or 200x the BB in the case of limit ring games just can't withstand a long streak of bad cards. I rarely see a profession meantion less that 20x and most say 30x the buy in for a NL ring game. Jennifer Harmon mentions in an article that for a 10/20 FL game you should have 10,000 as a bank roll. That is 500x the BB. Now if 2 top pros mention numbers no lower than 30x for NL and 300x for FL and and as had a 50x for NL and 500x for FL, should you believe them or listen to the people who have less of a poker career and knowledge suggesting 10/20x and 100/200x being sufficient. Most pros I have read never mention this low a number. So, I think I will listen to the majority in this case and go with the safer numbers.

Very informative, this answers alot of questions.