Bankroll, going pro, and 8 weeks of poker

poty

WINNING does not make you a pro! That's just false! If that was the definition of "professional," then anyone winning at .01/.02 is a pro??

Cmon, Zach... Pro mean ATTEMPTING TO PLAY FOR YOUR PRIMARY SOURCE OF INCOME, win or lose. There are plenty of losing pros, they're everywhere (I sit next to them in L.A. 4 days/wk). Many just get re-staked, or do live day-to-day (close to the streets).

I wasn't trying to be trite or cliche when I said turning pro is simple... it really is simple. TURNING pro VS. STAYING pro should be the argument.

Dorkus & Vanq... relax--

Have a Coke and a smile, and just do it. Is it in you?

Thank you all for contributing. Anyone else with something to say is welcome to post too.

Also, did anyone listen to the radio interview I linked up in the original post? Alot of what people are saying was in that too. Especially Dorkus's comment about losing $40 vs $400. (Jen talks about the first time she lost $100,000 towards the end). Just curious. An old high school teacher linked me to it when I told her about my ambitions. Reading about bankroll management and the stresses of going pro was helpful, but nothing hit nearly as hard as listening to Jen talk about the swings and the emotional toll that losing all that money took out of her.

Had anyone heard it before either? I thought it was probably new to the forums because 1) I had never seen it mentioned in a poker forum before, and 2) hardly anyone listens to public radio.

Bad logic, I never claimed anyone winning was a pro, but I did claim all pros were winners. Those are two completely different statements (sort of like how all of Houston is in Texas but not all of Texas is in Houston). To be a professional poker player, you must win money at poker, whether it's through the games or through endorsements and sponsorships (and not many people are willing to sponsor a losing player or use a losing player to sell their stuff). If they're playing in L.A. and they are losing, they are not pros. Baseball is probably what I spent the most time on apart from sleep last Spring. Does that mean I was a pro baseball player? No, because I wasn't making any money. Money's the key thing here. But if you want to get into semantics, the OP is asking about turning and staying a pro poker player and continuing to make enough money to comfortably support himself (correct me if I'm wrong OP).

I played professional tennis for 5 yrs, where all I did was travel and play. The 2 years I lost money (after travel expenses, equipment, etc), I WASN'T a professional??????? That's just plain ridiculous! The 3 yrs. I came out ahead, I WAS a pro?????

The players in L.A. that are losing at the end of the yr. are absolutely professionals... they're playing full-time, grinding day-after-day to try and support themselves. They're losing professionals, but still pros. Very few pros have endorsement deals-- those "t.v. pros" make up a tiny % of true, grinding pros that you see every day at the $40/80 & up tables.

Poker is unlike any other game in the world, where all you have to do to "turn pro" full-time is quit your day job. If the OP quit school to pursue his poker 40+ hr./wk, he'd be considered a Professional Poker Player (no matter the results).

[About your baseball, if you took a paycheck to play, you'd be considered a professional, win or lose].

How did you pay the bills? The source of this income answers your question.
I realize this, but people need money to pay the bills. Most like to live in a house, where clothes, have somewhere to shower every day, etc. This stuff costs money. To live most people need money. Where does this money come from? If it comes from tennis or poker, then that is your profession. Someone who loses can simply not pay the bills with that "income". In fact just because you win doesn't mean you're a pro. Someone who wins $1k/year probably can't pay the bills with that, so I'd say they aren't a pro.

Yes and how do they pay for new clothes, to clean the clothes, somewhere to shower, etc.? This costs money, if you quit school, play poker full time, and lose, it's kind of hard to pay for any of that. Life costs money, a "job" that loses money or only makes a tiny bit goes nowhere fast.

But in terms of money, I'd be able to support myself if they paid me. Instead I've got parents, scholarship, savings/job all helping to pay for school. If I used baseball to pay for school (which provides the necessities of life, food, shelter, showers, etc.) then I'd be a pro.

I simply can't agree more.

There is a lot of wisdom in Zach's posts and ChuckT's posts as well. You should re-read all three of these guy's posts in the order they were posted.

I want to touch on some points you said and that were said by others too. First off you made a point about freedom, man are you in for a big surprise when you become fully self employed as to what that freedom is. Sure, there is no "boss" to answer to in most people's minds but in reality you become the boss and must answer to yourself. No BS excuses gets by that boss unless one is dillusional. I've been self employed most of my life and have had plenty of employees. Trust me it isn't as easy by any means and you'll decidedly put in far more hours self employed than anyone does in a regular job. Time off is money down the drain. Taxes, soc security witholdings, insurance etc. are much higher too and must be factored in to the equation. No paid vacation time...Ever!

Next point, I see your dismay at the realisation of losing $400 vs losing $40. If you're going pro you'd better realise $400 is nothing. I've seen HU play where the buy in is 4K and players reloading 4 times in as little as 15 minutes! Sounds insane but it's the way it is. btw, that was Hoyt Corkins vs a guy from Sweden, Hoyt had a good day but it could have easily gone the other way around. A week latter I watched Hoyt drop 8K in about the same time (15 minutes) and leave the table empty handed. This is online play, $$ gets much bigger live. We all know some pro's win/lose $400K a night but they are BR'd for it and used to losing that kind of money and can handle it emotionally. Are you mentaly prepared to drop that kind of cash several games in a row? That's a question only you can answer yourself.

In ending, Chasing a dream can be a very good thing as long as one is prepared to do so to the very best of his abilities. Never stop learning or you will quickly see those dreams come to an end. Finding your life's calling and living it is priceless. I found mine (not poker) and have lived to experience so many things most people only dream about I could never count them all. Perhaps Poker is yours, perhaps it is not. You will know because no matter what you will be eager to work each new day and with each passing day your skill in your chosen path grows exponetialy. The day you truely arrive is when you've won the best of the best but inside yourself you know you still have a lot of things to learn and try all the harder to become better at your chosen path.

If you do chase your dreams make sure you use your head and do it with achievable goals one step at a time. Don't rush yourself, it'll only lead to ruin. .


Now, go re-read those three posts I mentioned again and the read them at least one more time after that. Double check Zach's Cliff notes too while you're at it. (in his first post)

pro·fes·sion·alplay_w2("P0582300") (pr-fsh-nl)
adj. 1. a. Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
b. Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behavior.

2. Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
3. Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.
4. Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.

n. 1. A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
2. One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.
3. A skilled practitioner; an expert.

/end silly debate.

No, they are compulsive gamblers, and there is a huge distinction between "professional poker player" and "person that doesn't have a job, but plays poker".

i would still go for the BRM, maybe not on the lowest level. But anything outside that BRM!! And uhm Good luck with it..

I very much doubt that this is true, but if it is then he's even more retarded than I ever thought.

Here's some motivation for the OP. 12 months of poker, courtesy of leatherass:

Does that include bonuses? Assuming this is the year he made sne?

But also take a look at the graph, he's one of the best. Now look at his progress from 423k to about 500k. Looks like he lost ~$20k over almost 80k hands. Imagine how tough that would be. It would be bad enough breaking even for that long, but depending on number of tables, that could be up over 2 weeks of work. You work full time for 2 weeks and are out ~$20k. Would you be able to handle that? Not saying you can't, just something to think about.

As I said, not trying to discourage anyone, I've definitely thought about it, just always make sure you make a backup plan and although getting better at poker is important, getting better at tilt management and playing under your BR is possibly more important so you can withstand runs like that.

It doesn't include bonuses or rakeback. Obviously, very few players will ever pull off a graph like this. But it can be done which was my main point I guess.

But what is a 20k loss for 2 weeks of work, when LA has made what appears to be $360,000 in a matter of 12-14 weeks? It probably didnt faze him at all. Now a player that made only $45,000 for the initial 432k hands then played for 2 weeks and lost 20k over 2 wks..... ouch it would be soul crushing.

even still like you said, prolly doesnt include bonuses.... he would have lost little, sick sick amount of fpps

But wouldn't losing 1/2 your br in 2 weeks show a lack of discipline? Certainly online you can always smack yourself down. Also you can always calculate a reasonable buy-in based on your own personal rules of BR management.

It seems most of the pros have advice on whether or not to go pro in the first place and when you can consider yourself to be a pro...

I'd like to toss in an odd kind of observation. Someone who grew up lower middle class to poor, might be better suited to the life of a professional poker player. I'm not meaning big name pro. I'm meaning someone who grinds out a living at it...

I know that sounds strange but I was mulling it over for a long time. A person who grew up on the poor side is better equipped for a hand to mouth existence. They surely would need someone to intervene quite quickly on the matter of BR management because when you're used to having to struggle to make ends meet, it makes you ill prepared for managing money properly. Still, with that kind of background, an extended downswing would be easier to live through.

I know that sounds like a very strange contribution. I just know that it's a lot easier to be poor when you already know how to be poor.

I may have misunderstood this (I am playing two MTTs while reading/posting). Did OP really say he has been playing since March, during which time he made a loss, and therefore his next step is to go pro ?

For comparison, I make $500-$600 per month, and have done consistently for a couple of years and many tens of thousands of hands, playing recreationally in the evenings after work.

And I know I am not ready to turn pro.

Dorkus's post is all the answer you need. If that don't put it in prespective then nothing will. GL

That graph is sick. He's made $1.2 Million over 1.4 Million hands? Almost $1 per hand. Unreal.

he's the same guy that's gonna try to do 100k in a month at 400nl fullring right

This is true, it is the dream though when you make small deposits. I definatly go for broke when I deposit a small sum, it is actually more exciting for me.

He said he'd do this if he could get at least $250k in action. I doubt he'll get any takers. He also has an open challenge to anyone in the world to see who can make the most money in a month at 1kNL and 2kNL.

what odds does he want or is he giving? if its 1:1 i might be interested tbh

LOL it's a sucker bet, tbh. I'm not a LA fanboy or anything, but the guy is a sick sick machine.

$100,000 @ 400NL ~ 300k hands @ 4PTBB/100

Both of those figures are WELL within his range. Especially if there's money on the line. He routinely plays 150k hands a month at 1kNL+.

yep, he'll crush that prop bet if anyone takes it imo. I don't know what he's laying, but 1:1 would be a steal, heh.

whats his winrate at 1knl? i'd be hard-pressed to believe that anyone who puts in 300k hands in a month can sustain > 3 PTBBs

From what I have seen, between 3-4PTBB/100. He seriously is capable of holding like 6PTBB/100 at NL400 while 10 tabling.

Attached Images

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oh, here's the 2+2 Thread regarding the prop



Edit : My favorite quote from the thread

Originally Posted by ImsaKidd
Didnt you have a 52k month at 1/2 with no propbets before?

Originally posted by Leatherass
yes. but, shhhhhhhhhh