Aside from rake, why do players lose?

Lets stop going round in circles on the other post.

What makes players lose aside from rake?

(Even though I would say over 80% of losers would still lose even if there wasnt rake)

Calling to much

I'd have to say that emotions play a big part. When feelings get in the way, you tend to make stupid plays that cost so very dearly. I play my best when I am the least emotional in the game. Just play a no-nonsense by the odds poker.

there is an easy answer if you knew game theory. but I'll try to explain. poker is a game of skill but is different from those games that depend on intelligence (like chess), talent and practice (like sports)... It's a game of incomplete information and some of it depends on luck, therefore even the most skillful is bound to make mistakes. Now all these make people THINK they can compete, but not everyone is lucky OR skillful enough. Or they are lucky but don't know where to stop etc etc.

And above that everybody plays against you (only except HU, there is one player to play against)... when you think of sports or other games, the opponent/s are usually equal with you/your team. So when every other person on the table tries to do their best to beat you, and the information is incomplete, and there is luck factor involved- it's actually a very hard job to maintain longterm success. Therefore you have only couple of choices to succeed:

1- make it a grind to minimize the risk- like it's a 9a.m-5p.m job. multitables, rakeback, and overcoming tilt issues will be main thing here.

2- luckbox a tournament.

3- be skillfull enough to jump through limits fast. (like durrrr etc.) this is the hardest one, as even though the play between the limits are not that different; the amount of money on the line always leads to mistakes. controlling emotions is key here. (also read "boywonder"s thread about this on 2p2 for inspiration- I can find the link if people would request)

This is what I think the problem is overall, nevermind the rake.

What the first two responders said and this,
overvaluing certain cards,(hands),
Not knowing anything about post flop play,
and Playing out of position.

Too many games in a too faster time. You finish one you start another one.

I do profit a little bit in online poker but not as much as i did in live casino's games.

Just too many games.

Plus too easy to go on tilt... with internet games...

1) limits
2) skill
3) patience

Thats just my opinion.

Most people have no idea how little they understand about the game.

play to many hands

need skill

alot of paitence

and dont read ppl correctly

1)incorrect BRM is the number 1 reason people dont succeed in online poker.
2)Flat calling raises instead of folding or raising
3)Lack of a HUD
4)Ignorance of position
5)Improper bet sizing
6)Incorrect hand ranges
7)Not knowing pot odds
8)Variance/Bad Luck
9)Tilt

The other thread asked a different question, they asked why do MOST people lose at poker? So you have asked a different question, and will therefore receive a different answer. It doesn't change the fact that the correct answer to the other question was rake.

I have to admit I was one of these people until about last week. I have no clue wtf I am doing compared to some of the people who make vids

And I don't think 80% of people would lose without rake. In fact, I'm pretty sure it'd be way less than that.

Somebody's gotta lose.

No, I just dont think it is.

I thought this was the non rake discussion thread? Might as well merge them if we go back to that.

As I said in other thread, BRM is not the main problem as no BRM plan will turn ev- poker into ev+ and yes, someone has to lose. Playing too many hands has to be right near the top.

They play with people who are better than them. Why are they not as good as others at the table?

1. Call too much/in wrong situations
2. Fold too much/in wrong situations
3. Bet too much/in wrong situations/too big/small
4. Raise too much/in wrong situations/too big/small

Think that pretty much covers it.

Not read the rest yet but this is making me a losing player right now, just started playing again and having my first go at cash games. I cannot stop from calling which is strange because I used to be a fold machine.

Also what Zach said.

Also I find myself getting pre-occupied now when I play either surfing or other stuff so maybe I am not diciplined enough and lack of concentration means missing reads and bad plays.

Ego. Players think that they are better then they really are and play at limits that are out of there skill range.

Impatience. People play for an hour or two, then feel like it's time for them to get lucky, and make stupid plays.

Definitely not a reason WHY people lose!!!!

P.S. HUDs are overrated

Thats your opinion, a HUD has saved me and made me money. i go with results not opinions. gl at the tables

Agreed. A properly used HUD can help but just having one isn't going to make you win if you're losing before it.

not taking the game seriously enough

If you can win with an HUD but can't without it, see vanquish's above post.

god hates players who lose

thererefore you will never succeeedd

Well i agree you should still be able to win without a hud, but it doesnt hurt to have one. It really does help you make decisions and helps your reads. I stick by what i said, it has made me money in so many different ways. If you can have even a little edge why wouldnt you take it. Its like being the slight favorite in a coinflip. i will take being the favorite by 5% than being the underdog.

Emotional swings have a lot to do with the way people play as mentioned. The key is to play when you feel like playing so u can win. Rake honestly is a very small part of why people lose, there are a bunch of different theories but none of them have been proven so your guess is as good as mine but i think emotions and patience are the two biggest things.

Call or chase like the cat looking for the summer door.

Loosing players don`t understand the game <period>

The reason people lose is because they lack skill, over estimate their ability, do not have patience, can not control their emotions, and/or bad luck. Luck is the biggest reason people lose at poker. No matter how good you are you can never over come the fact that poker is still a game of luck no matter who wants to try and dispute that fact. In other sports and games you can easily overcome the luck factor because of superior play, but in poker you don't have that ability.

Really? You think that the best poker players don't limit the amount of impact luck because they're superior players?

1. Online poker is rigged.
2. The best hand always looses therefor all will go broke to gus hansen.
3. Pocket 4s always cracks pocket aces so never fold them.
4. Ive just been bad beated and i love full tilt poker from the bottom of my heart!

Even ignoring the joke answers, there are many reasons and combinations of reasons why players lose. If I had to pick just one though, it would be over-estimating their own ability level, which leads to playing at levels where they are -EV.

Superior players do try to limit the impact of luck, but luck is more important in poker than other games. Its an intregal and important part of poker. You could never win if you never got a winning hand, you can only bluff so much. If players could actually take luck out of the equation then the top players would never lose, and the final table of the main even WSOP would all be elite pros.

The thread started talking about why good players lose, they lose becasue of luck, or they really aren't that good. When you get sucked out by some donk, they got lucky. Unless you subscribe to the poker is rigged for them theory. If you risked enough money to put you in the red, and they got lucky then you lose.

Probably includes not doing the following well. These are all general principles of handling risk.

1. Overcoming fear.
2. Remaining flexible.
3. Taking reasoned risks.
4. Preparing to be wrong.
5. Focusing on reality.
6. Responding to change quickly and decisively.
7. Concentrating on decisions, not outcomes.*

These are all important, but 4 and 7 are the most striking to me because they are ones I might not think of at first.

With 4, when you are taking on any task that includes making decisions with incomplete information, you need an escape plan for when you find out you were wrong. This is why I like small ball poker. It extends the escape window.

With 7, if you concentrate on your decision-making process, rather than worrying about outcomes, you are focusing on that which you can do something about, rather than on that which you can't.

That is, with any set of events (poker hands) where the overall percentage of particular outcomes is predictable, but the outcome of each event is random, it is important that you execute your decision-making consistently so that the expected percentages can work out. Obsessing about winning one hand clouds the bigger picture, and might easily cause you to abandon your normal decision-making process for something that wrecks the percentages.

* List from Inside the Mind of the Turtles, by Curtis Faith