Am I being arrogant/egotistical/hypocritical?

For foolish reasons sometimes I get in debates over hands when I play poker; they are pointless because all that they achieve is each person saying, "I'm right you're wrong" Well they're not that pointless because I learn a bit about their thinking style. Basically we argue and not once has someone said, "hey maybe you're right"

To help explain myself I'll give some examples:

A player decides to limp mid position with about 30 BB with A4o, it was folded around to him; I said to him it was bad because he'll win a lot of small pots and loose a lot oif big ones;

Don't know how the conservation drifted to this but for some reason we started discussing a pro poker players move; it was a $3500 tournament(I think anyway, maybe bigger), top 28 get paid and 33 participants left, presumably a MTT pay out structure since it was a MTT. A player min raised UTG and the pro in discussion was criticized for going all-in with KK( I get the feeling they were around 10-20 M by the discussion) The reasoning was is that one must play cautiously when so close to the bubble, and these were his exact words, "what if he has AA, or QQ and hits a set or a ace and hits that? It's not worth the risk" He believes that a call is best, then go all-in on any flop that hasn't got a A, fold every flop that has a A. My argument that one must take these small risks even when close to the bubble; he, like me, just thought that the other person's ideas are ludicrous. These kind of discussions happen all too often and it makes me wonder if I'm being as bad as they are; most, if not all, are very ego orientated when discussing such things; hell this guy who was discussing this went on saying how that he was right because he had entered a $4000 tournament before and wouldn't shut up till I said that the call was better.

I'm also getting the opinion of literally every player(well one exception) that I play with are plain terrible, irrational monkeys. They just make so many bad plays and the worst thing about it is they think they are good and playing the hands well(some guy who watched me play criticized my folds of ace rag when in mid position when no one has raised because after all, it's a A. My comment of, "the problem with those hands is that I'll win lots of small pots and loose lots of large ones" went completely over his head, which made him repeat how bad that was to fold.

I'm just finding it ironic because I'm thinking that these players are dip shits yet in a way doing exactly what they are. Opinions people?

Why tap on the aquarium or help the fish to grow?

The place to discuss how hands are played is here, or possibly in a CC freeroll, but not generally via the chat box in the game. If you are going to insist on doing it, maybe at least learn the difference between loose and lose?

Yeah you're right I should have never said anything to those guys.

Umm sorry for the confusion this is at live venues... And why point out the fact that I spell lose wrong?

You feel that it is OK for you to educate others on how to play poker, but don't think that it is OK for me to educate you about how to spell? Hopefully now you can understand why they don't want you telling them how to play poker. Also the fact that you made the same mistake twice implies that it is not just a typo.

Interesting post. Without getting into the debate about the table discussions I do think you have a point about the way the game is being played. Time after time I see players with A rag thinking they have to call or even bet especially if their cards are suited. And time after time I see them hit an A or even 2 pair to take the hand that they should never have been in to start with. It is up to every player to decide whether to play their cards or not and I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is that these players then think they have played well instead of the reality which is that they have been lucky. They will lose more than they win and that is the saving grace.

Arguably part of the reason for the enormous success of NLHE is because so many people think that they are good at it when in reality they are not, and that's why they are willing to spend their money on it.

This is not at all related to anything in this thread and is typical grammar nazi-ing for no reason.
Back to thread: The fact that you are discussing your hands is good I suppose. If i remember rightly, you made a thread about your winnings in live tournaments with 70% rake, i presume this is the same place? If so, just keep playing the way you play, you don't need to tell others how you play a hand or anything, just listen to others and find out how badly they play, it may give you extra info on them and a small edge the next time you play them. But also like dwolfg said, why tap the tank? gl at the tables

Yeah it's the same place

What I'm basically asking is how do I know that I'm not becoming as close minded as they are? I find it ironic that me and my opponents have the same line of thinking, "no that's bad this is good."

As for tapping the glass, I do agree; however, some players just love to talk about how great they are and by doing so reveal a lot about how they play; hell this player last night practically screamed at me that he's a scared nit who plays to move up the prize pool, not maximize equity. Most are so egotistical it doesn't really matter what I say *shrug* but it's still best to not annoy them I guess

Agree with them! Let them think theyy are great while collecting enough information on them to take their money

The OP was telling other people how to play poker, so it seems reasonable to me to tell the OP how to spell. Don't you think it's ironic that my advice obtained such a strong reaction in this thread, yet the OP wonders why their advice to other poker players invokes a similarly robust reaction?

No it's the fact that this is a poker forum, not a spelling forum so spelling discussion is not relevant. /thread hijack

hmm I was tossing up whether to even reply to this; basically they are different circumstances but whatever, no need to argue over me spelling lose incorrectly lol.

I wasn't aware that you were referring to live poker at the time I made the comment, as it wasn't made clear in the OP, so to me it seemed relevant. My comment is clearly talking about comments in the chat box during online poker games, and nothing to do with me being a nazi.I am entitled to respond when somebody implies that I am a fascist, or asks why I did something - this is a discussion forum, after all. If you don't want the thread to follow this line of discussion, you don't have to respond.

Incidentally I was quite surprised when playing live just how verbally aggressive some people are in live tournaments, I can't help but wonder whether some of them end up being smacked in the mouth when they go outside afterwards. When they ask me why I did what I did I just smile sweetly - at the end of the day I'm not answerable to them.

that made me laugh

Hmm I'm not sure but I think in those situations it may be good to be superstitious; remember to thank your lucky chair!

One of the regulars is really proud of the fact that he is a self-proclaimed "professional", and people call him Mad Dog which probably isn't going to win any awards for originality. He really interrogates people after a lot of hands about why they did what they did. I'm sure that he gains a lot of information from people that way, which is why I always just smile sweetly and say nothing.

wow that sounds really intense. Have you ever tried to of set him i.e give him false information?

I just find it mildly amusing that he does quite well in the single-table side tournaments, yet always seems to lose in the big tournament of the day. If somebody feels the need to be bragging about the fact that they're supposedly a professional it also makes me doubt their maturity - especially as this guy looks as if he's in his late fifties.

While I usally hate grammar nazis too, I think NFWs main point was to make you feel like you make that player/players feel when you berate them. Nothing does my head in more (never played live) is when you have someone doing commentry on others play or worse berating them for bad play. Personally I think its another form of tilt.

underlined - this is a GOOD thing. Let them think that their play is good - congratulate them on their hand or whatever. Re-inforcing their bad play is a good thing!!

(did I spell everything correctly there (their, they're).. because I'm feeling a tad self-concious about it (< is there a hyphen in that?). Is it re-inforcing... or re-enforcing... I think it's re-inforcing??)

or reinforcing...

OP, obviously the guy you're originally talking about (saying to just call with KK preflop in order to avoid an A flop) is a freak'n idiot. Sometimes we might 'call' with the big pr. but only if stack sizes warrant it as a trap in an effort to get all of the chips into the middle on the hand in question. We're obviously looking to get as many chips into the middle as possible in a spot like that... if a 3bet will induce a 4bet shove... then a 3bet it is (or if we feel he'll likely flat it out of position)... OR.. perhaps a shove will look weaker & thereby get us value from a hand that might not likely give us action if we 3bet (a 3bet might look particularly strong, especially if our stack size isn't very deep..say <25bb's)... the shove may 'look like' and AK or AQ hand and villain might be much more likely to call with med. pp's 77-TT (stuff he might fold depending upon stack sizes etc. if we were to 3bet).

Of course this dipshit won't get/understand any of this stuff.... so when we're playing an idiot like this (sorry but I'm calling him an idiot... maybe not the best term to describe them?... although if he's arguing that 'calling w KK in order to avoid an A-flop'.. .then maybe it's the correct term for him?) we need to adjust our game..... we need to try to think about what they're thinking in the spot (it might not be the 'correct play' so to speak... but it might be 'very' correct considering the villain's level of thinking.. or lack of it more likely).

Also, chatting them up, conversing over hands.... sure it's all good for info. No need to educate them though. This is -EV. (let them think they're right obv.). During breaks you might even approach them & ask them about a particular hand they played (looking for info.) but do so in a way that's stroking their ego a bit as it'll give you more info. as they'll likely want to boast about their 'expert play'... ie. "Well you see, I'm always only flat-calling there in that spot with KK because I want to avoid a flop with an Ace. I know if an Ace comes I can just fold my KK to my opponent's bet" (< how easy will it be to beat this guy... lol.. oh look there's a 'scarecard', I think I'll bet this cuz I know this guy will even fold KK here in a heartbeat).

Take their money and don't have expectations for intelligent conversation about how to play hands in certain situations. It's tough to find peers where you can actually intellectualize certain spots in games. If you find one it's a bonus. Just don't get the rest of them smarter so that they'll be able to join in on it with you.

You have reinforced an opinion I made earlier in this thread. ty

say good hand and move on, if there playing bad i want em to keep playing bad

well very good point u have there, most people leave there intelligents to the computor tec age now,for example driveing to a location they know useing there gps , the gps tells them to turn left when they know they should turn right.... they turn left because the gps said to they forget to use there own brain.... so u cant have a intelligent conversation with them I hope u like eating fish

My opinion is (hopefully I'm not repeating anyone's post, cause I didn't read them all...after the spelling fight I just skipped ahead) Unless the people you are arguing with are good friends of yours...just don't argue. Encourage them to think they're the greatest players in the world and take their money.

^^^ This pretty much sums it up and says all one needs to know with regards to engaging poor players who think they actually know what they're doing, or that someone else doesn't.

Along these lines, I have a personality flaw that I've struggled with my whole life. I'm a somewhat OCD, detail-oriented freak who feels compelled to "educate" or correct people, not out of ego or the need to feel superior, but because I actually feel anxiety when witnessing blatant ignorance or stupidity. And no, not to the degree of being a spelling nazi (although I do cringe at some people's spelling/grammer, I manage to contain myself, and also remind myself that our typing fingers and keyboards don't always obey our brain).

Not arguing with the donks who obviously don't know what they're doing, but insist they do, was one of the harder things for me to resist when I started playing. Even when I didn't always know the right play either, I was studying enough to often recognize a bad play when I saw one. I couldn't help but to respond with explanations of my play, or of someone else's play, or to rebut the offending oaf's bragging with in-his-face results from SharkScope that proved he was not the player he thought he was (it was always a bit funny to catch those who had no idea that sites actually compiled stats on them).

I quickly learned the error of my ways, however, and today offer a "nh" and "gg" when I run afoul of a lucky donk. I want him to keep thinking he's got it going on, and that we can learn from him. On rare occasion (maybe once or twice at most) when someone is being overly abusive in chat, I have reported them. Otherwise I just ignore or mute them. I hesitate to disable chat completely because you can often read people by their chat, or sometimes a friendly banter develops that I enjoy.

Hmm I don't think I explained what I meant correctly. I don't berate them, I'm a calm peace loving guy. What I was trying to ask is how do you guys actually know that your line of thinking is correct when talking about hands? I'm not asking for the satisfaction of, "I'm right )

I found it ironic the other night with the KK discussion that we both believed we where right and wouldn't change our opinions; I was doing the exact same thing as he was really, just my line of thinking may be a little bit more educated. I realised that the monkey was beyond reason early so before it turned into some ego war I decided to just agree with him, which I think made him feel satisfied. I guess I should not even have in my mind the idea of discussing hands; but then again, it would be really cool to have some local rational poker fanatic who I can discuss the game with; this won't happen any time soon though

But anyway, I find that I'm starting to think that all the players are really.... stupid for a lack of a better word. When I say that I'm ultimately comparing them to someone, me.... I guess I think by playing with these guys I'm becoming arrogant and it's ironic because when discussing hands I'm doing the exact same thing as they are, going of preconceptions; I guess I consider what they say *shrug*


I'm probably not explaining myself very well

EDIT: Put in another way, I find it ironic that when discussing such things I "know" that I'm right and he "knows" the that he's right; I'm doing the same as he is, basing my judgments off of preconceptions

I usually just let them rant. When you chat it tells all unless you lie the whole time Lol