Is this against the rules?

#1 9th August 2007, 12:31 AM

Ok, so I was in a $1.10 SnG and with 4 people left I got disconnected in the middle of a hand (internet went out). I come back and see the 2 people talking (1 other guy at the table also was disconnected) and these 2 people were saying "lets just keep folding and stealing their blinds" and they were telling each other what hands they had.

Is this against pokerstars policy?

#2 9th August 2007, 12:33 AM

(Btw I was chip leader and when I came back I was already blinded to 3rd)

#3 9th August 2007, 12:35 AM

hand discussing usually isnt but them blinding you down there is nothing wrong with that. Its not their fault you have no internet connection and I have blinded down people before, why should they have to wait 5-10-20 minutes for you to come back?

#4 9th August 2007, 12:37 AM

umm, them actually blinding you out isn't an offence but the second they start explicitly talking about doing it it becomes collusion.

drop pokerstars an e-mail.

#5 9th August 2007, 12:39 AM

Idiotic to bother discussing the hands. And as DM said, collusion. Not that PS will probably bat an eye.

#6 9th August 2007, 12:39 AM

My opinion: If they stop playing against each other (AKA "soft-playing") and just steal the blinds of the discos, then I think it's against the rules. But if they play normally against each other throughout, then that's perfectly legal.

#7 9th August 2007, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skoldpadda

Not that PS will probably bat an eye.

Eh, they're actually pretty good at sorting these things. Yeah, if it's a first offence they'll just give the players a warning, but that seems fair enough.

#8 9th August 2007, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arkadiy

Ok, so I was in a $1.10 SnG and with 4 people left I got disconnected in the middle of a hand (internet went out). I come back and see the 2 people talking (1 other guy at the table also was disconnected) and these 2 people were saying "lets just keep folding and stealing their blinds" and they were telling each other what hands they had.

Is this against pokerstars policy?

Discussing blinding you out is against policy.
If they were saying what hand they had before the hand was finished, that is also against policy even in play money games much less real $.

#9 9th August 2007, 12:50 AM

Ya they played no hands (I watched for a bit before saying I was back), just folded every single hand. I'm not going crazy over the dollar (even though my goal is build a decent size bankroll from $20 but still $4 wouldn't have been bad)

#10 9th August 2007, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pigpen02

Discussing blinding you out is against policy.
$.

please post a screen shot or link to where you see that?

#11 9th August 2007, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormswa

please post a screen shot or link to where you see that?

I think it's the fact that they DISCUSSED doing it.

#12 9th August 2007, 1:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormswa

please post a screen shot or link to where you see that?

From PokerStars' Terms of Service:

Quote:

5.3. COLLUSION. Collusion between Users by sharing hole cards or by any other methods is strictly forbidden. PokerStars reserves the right, in addition to other measures, to restrict seating and/or to prohibit Users from playing at a particular poker table or in a tournament, including restricting two or more Users from playing together at the same table or in the same tournament . In addition, PokerStars reserves the right to consider any collusion between players (including Users) as a material breach of this Agreement and accordingly PokerStars shall have the right to terminate a User's account if a User engages or attempts to engage in any such activity, regardless of the outcome of such attempt.

From the American Heritage Dictionary:

Quote:

col·lu·sion

(k

-l

zh

n) KEY

NOUN:

A secret agreement between two or more parties for a fraudulent, illegal, or deceitful purpose.

#13 9th August 2007, 3:07 AM

been in that stiutation a few times ,once it was heads up and I hurried up and blinded him out and once there were 10 people on the table (freeroll) and seven were sitting out , I suggested , instead of killing each other for the sitouts blinds , we should take turns stealing them. so we did .

I didnt really think it was cheating , but looking back , I guess it was.

#14 9th August 2007, 3:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSticker

From PokerStars' Terms of Service:

From the American Heritage Dictionary:

so where does it say blinding down someone is against the rules. this says sharing cards. Nothing in there it says you can not blind someone out, or take turns taking their blinds.

what u bolded means sharing cards by any means meaning in chat box, on the phone, on IM etc.

taking turns taking someones blinds that is sitting out is not collusion.

#15 9th August 2007, 3:18 AM

Any discussion about a hand that is still in progress is wrong

#16 9th August 2007, 3:26 AM

Hi all,
As shown and stated above the two players in question were undoubtedly cheating, what would it take for you to cause more of a fuss about it? Just because it was $4 shouldn't make it any worse or better than if it was like mine a couple of years back, a $50 sit-n-go. Same thing, disconnected, by the time I got back I was all-in with the BB, it didn't take me a long time to get back but it was late in the game and I was chip leader.
The thing is if these two players were genuinely playing each other they would have probably seen the flop, turn and river so you wouldn't have lost as much and probably got back in time to still have a big enough stack to continue without worry. I understand why people do this but it is cheating and it's wrong, and yes it is a shame when nothing can be done because proof is required which can't be achieved if your disconnected, by the depletion of your stack simply tells you they were colluding but that in itself is not proof enough.

A different point is about disconnection, I wish there was some way of researching this but i've had poker rooms disconnect me at certain times which seems, let's just say wierd. Not being disconnected from the internet, from the poker server, i've seen it a lot at certain places and it always seems to be at an important point eg: Holding the nuts on the river with more than two others in, or having just flopped the nuts. I've not seen it happen when i've had nothing, but then again that's a different story.

The thing is there are unexplained things which happen during a game of poker, there will be cheaters and there will be disconnects, I handle them like bad beats, it's happened so let's get on with the next game, dwell on it too much and it can effect the next game so just forget about it like you do a bad beat.
Knock em dead in the next game arkadiy, good luck

Tony

#17 9th August 2007, 3:31 AM

so lets change the situation a little bit say you sat at a 10 person STT and after like 3 hands 2 guys sit out and dont come back. It gets down to 4 handed with one guy with giant stack and you and the 2 guys sitting out. You think its right/fair that now you have to play against the big stack and the 2 guys sitting out make money while you have to go out in 4th. You all have about the same chip stack so if you just fold you will still go out in 4th?

#18 9th August 2007, 3:50 AM

That's a fair point stormswa but in that scenario you have the choice to either go out in 4th or play the chip leader, I have no issue about playing a chip leader, with a disconnect and two players colluding though you don't have a choice about that situation, shame but it happens, that's online poker.

Tony

#19 9th August 2007, 3:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thewebmaster

That's a fair point stormswa but in that scenario you have the choice to either go out in 4th or play the chip leader, I have no issue about playing a chip leader, with a disconnect and two players colluding though you don't have a choice about that situation, shame but it happens, that's online poker.

Tony

these 2 were colluding because they discused their hands not because they blinded OP out. I just want to make the clear.

#20 9th August 2007, 4:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arkadiy

and these 2 people were saying "lets just keep folding and stealing their blinds" and they were telling each other what hands they had.

Is this against pokerstars policy?

Quote:

Originally Posted by pigpen02

Discussing blinding you out is against policy.
If they were saying what hand they had before the hand was finished, that is also against policy even in play money games much less real $.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arkadiy

I think it's the fact that they DISCUSSED doing it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eaglelite

Any discussion about a hand that is still in progress is wrong

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormswa

These 2 were colluding because they discused their hands not because they blinded OP out. I just want to make that clear.

YOU want to make it clear now? I think it was clear 10 posts ago. Sheesh.

#21 9th August 2007, 6:02 AM

You can and SHOULD report this to PS support. I believe they WILL give you 1st money and take it from the cheaters. The chat is available to them and it seems clear enough.

I've been on both sides but not once have I participated in discussion of this sort. Similar to Implied Collusion when you check it down to gang up on an all-in stack. DOING it is LEGAL. TALKING ABOUT it is NOT.

Please report it. It'll be for their own good.

Goldog

#22 9th August 2007, 6:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSticker

YOU want to make it clear now? I think it was clear 10 posts ago. Sheesh.

Jerk!

#23 9th August 2007, 1:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaymfc

been in that stiutation a few times ,once it was heads up and I hurried up and blinded him out and once there were 10 people on the table (freeroll) and seven were sitting out , I suggested , instead of killing each other for the sitouts blinds , we should take turns stealing them. so we did .

I've done the same. If you've got 7/8 sitouts on the same table it makes sense to keep the table together as long as possible without it breaking. Sometimes opponents will cotton on without the need for chat, sometimes they wont, but I hardly think it constitutes cheating. Temporary disconnections may be different, but I used to give people a chance to get back on when they disconnected - I did a poll and I was very much in the minority, most people said it was tough luck and would use any edge they had, and keep raising as quickly as possible.. I dont see much difference in Arkidy's situation.

I wouldn't report it personally, it doesn't seem worth getting someone potentially banned. The person that suggested it was most guilty, the person that simply agreed would be very harshly treated i.m.o if he was punished.

(P.S. I wouldn't have agreed to it - exploit the other person by continually raising him, he'll not want to risk going out 4th with 2 sitouts).

#24 9th August 2007, 2:06 PM

I think they were discussing their cards as in "oh i just folded aces", since they werent playing the hands anywa, just stealing the blinds.

Cant say im 2 bothered by it, u cant just sit out and expect a free ride to the money.

#25 9th August 2007, 2:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alan1983

I think they were discussing their cards as in "oh i just folded aces", since they werent playing the hands anywa, just stealing the blinds.

Cant say im 2 bothered by it, u cant just sit out and expect a free ride to the money.

AMEN...see it all the time!!

and some people dont realize it and a friendly reminder is just that.....

#26 9th August 2007, 3:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSticker

YOU want to make it clear now? I think it was clear 10 posts ago. Sheesh.

I concur.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormswa

Jerk!

I demur.

#27 9th August 2007, 3:41 PM

being you were all at the same table when you were disconnected it seems unfair for the others to take advantage of you..I could understand tring to out last a sitter.

#28 9th August 2007, 9:48 PM

While people are often disconnected for reasons beyond their control, many use sitting out as a means to effortlessly win money.

If mid-point in a game, with a big stack, a person could go into auto-fold and then go off and start playing in another game, knowing that they have second or third locked. I find this to be a nasty action.

Regardless of the reason/modivation of the setting out player, should I be penalized because I am not sitting out and playing the game?

Several times I have initiated action to blind out a sitting out player, and I will continue to do so when inaction will result in a monetary loss to me.

#29 9th August 2007, 9:54 PM

This is not cheating. If you disconnect it is well within the players rights to blind you off and move up in the pay ladder!! It isnt their fault that u disconnected they can blind you off if they chose too. If some1 leaves teh table in live they would do the same thing.

#30 9th August 2007, 10:04 PM

Guys you don't understand the question, I know it is legal to chip out people when they are sitting out but they were DISCUSSING about doing it and telling each other their hands.... (really not sure why there were telling each other their hands but that isn't the point)

#31 9th August 2007, 10:11 PM

Yea theres no point in telling each other their hands! Theres nothing wrong with bliding people out that are sitting out. It doenst really have any effect on what they are doing if they know what each other has in their hand anyway.

#32 10th August 2007, 1:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJ08512

If mid-point in a game, with a big stack, a person could go into auto-fold and then go off and start playing in another game, knowing that they have second or third locked. I find this to be a nasty action.

Regardless of the reason/modivation of the setting out player, should I be penalized because I am not sitting out and playing the game?

Hi all,
I'm not sure I understand this point being made, if someone has worked hard building there stack to the point where they can sit out and comfortably come in the money before battling for 1st then that's fine, that's actually a strategy that I quite often use, I don't leave the table but I sit-out instead of continously battling it out, what's the point if I can make the money? It's not penalizing you. At the end of the day the ultimate goal is to make the money.
I think the sit-outs that most dislike are ones that register for a freeroll only to sit out without even pulling the software up and coming in the money. Of course all of this is ok and no-one is breaking any rules.

The main point of this thread though was to determine wether the collusion part was illegal which in fact it was, if the two in question had just kept blinding the others out that would be fine, the fact that they told each other what their cards were was not ok and maybe should be reported.

Tony

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