5/10 limit and 1/2 no limit

Why put yourself in that position? You don't need $4k to play the limits we are talking about. Surely there is no need to beat yourself up and 'quit' again if you slip once and take a shot at a higher game.

An analogy: if you were on a diet and trying to lose weight, would you put a bag of cookies in your cupboard and say, "If I can't not eat them then I deserve to be fat" ? Of course not-- you wouldn't have cookies around in the first place if you were serious about your goal.

Dude, I think you've totally misunderstood my last post. "Seen the light" means you understand what we are trying to say. "You get it! Good Job! Go work it out at $10NL or lower, like you said." At least, I thought you did.

If you've gone so far off the deep end that you can't even understand the written word, then I'll have to bid farewell to you and your "issues". Good luck, sir.

was sarcasm calm down.

sorry if you took the "jerk" comment literal, it was not meant that way.

another valid point, thanks alien.

storms,
Having played in a WSOP event, I can tell you that it's a very fun experience. Nothing beats being in the massive Amazon Room at the Rio surrounded by pros and others INSIDE THE ROPES and going up against these guys. For me, I'd rather take $4K and play in a few WSOP events than trying to grind out $5/$10 limit and $1/$2 NL online.

When I played my event, I saved up the $1000 to buy in directly. I didn't grind it out online and I didn't play $3/$6 Stud8 to "prove" to myself that I belonged. I went out to Vegas and played my game and I made it through 40% of the field. I played against pros and did fine. And I got a whole hell of alot more enjoyment out of that than I ever would have playing against nobodies on the computer.

I don't go to AC as often as you do, but I've played enough down there. Typically 2/4 limit and 1/2 NL, SNGs, and $100 Tourneys. I do ok in limit, I'm very mixed in 1/2, SNGs I do ok, and I go deep but do not cash in the MTTs. Online, I play micro limits and I play them almost daily. Highest I've played is .50/$1 limit and .10/.25 NL.

I have only put two deposits online. I went bust on FT in a month, and I'm still playing my original deposit on Stars, but I'm presently down, because I have an issue with tilt and blew half my roll a few weeks back. Since then I've been playing in the gutters. .01/.02 NL, .01/.02 PLO8, .04/.08 Stud8.

Skill wise do I belong at those levels? Hell no. But until I learn to control my tilt issues I have to play at these levels. If for nothing else than punishing myself and teaching myself that this is the result of ridiculous emotion that I should be able to control.

I hope you'll find my experiences helpful in making your determination of what to do. Best of luck.

Hmmm, I'm late to the discussion, but,

would you put some kind of structure on your playing?


Something simple, like "I'm going to start at 50NL. If I lose 3 buy-ins, I will drop down to 25NL. When my bankroll has recovered those 3 buy-ins, I will go back to 50NL. Once my bankroll is earned 3 buy-ins for 100NL, I will allow myself to try 100NL"

none, zero, zilch.

I can make extra money pretty easy so I would just say I think I want to play and I would get the money together and play what I wanted to. It got old real quick and I felt I was a lot better player then this so I decided to stop bleeding money. I have zero experience in bankroll managment so its all kinda new to me. Its funny/sad because I have all the knowledge and skills to be a really really good player but my total lack of BM makes me such a horrible player right now.

Like JD said he and I have talked tons about this but I'm still trying to learn good BM skills. I posted this thread to get opinions and then make my decision on what to do, obviously im not doing this because the negative comments are very good and make a good argument why this is not a good idea. Just bear with me while I try to obtain workable bankroll managment skills. Im going from a good player with zero BM skills to a good player with good BM skills.

Because of this post I just feel like I have to say again that it is NOT bankroll management that is your problem. Please reread if you missed those points I tried to make.

obv there is no hope

I know your points alien I was just answering the question that was asked, the problem was my total disregaurd for the value of the money I deposited.

but I also have zero bankroll managment skills, I know exactly where my flaws were/are and I plan on fixing them.

lol,

if you cant add anything to the thread stay out of it seriously, all I have seen is you have a gambling problem and agreeing with posters actully contributing.

It's a public forum last time I checked, but thanks for your input.

If you knew all your flaws and can just fix them, good for you, but considering you just keep reloading I really doubt it is as easy as you think it will be.

What is really wrong with you storm?
You seem to be like a bull in a china shop with a blindfold on.
No matter what you are posting about there is always an edgy compulsion lingering around you.
Is that what we have here, are you overly compulsive?

These limits you intend to play with your 4k BR, have you done this successfully online before?
If you have then why are you not still there now making some nice money, if you havent, what makes you think you can do well there now?

You have said in almost all of your posts in this thread that you know you have the skill to beat these levels.
Storm, no you dont, you just dont have the skill to beat these ring games.

You said you owned the 180 player events, so go back and own them again because any skills that you possess belong in those obviously.
Your ring game obviously isnt up to it.

MTT's and S&G's are where your strengths are from what i can tell, and ring games are where you are coming unstuck.

Feeling the need to have 4-8 tables running at the same time because you get bored and need more action or whatever is another aspect of your play that you need to address.

You, like all of us, are a very proud person and the way things have gone for you recently at the tables has left a very bitter taste in your mouth.
We would all be feeling down and desperate given the same circumstances and thats a fact.

What you have in mind with the 4k seems to me like you are in danger of falling into the trap of chasing your loses, or more to the point and because you said it is all affordable loses, chasing your pride.
Not only that, but your own admission of poor BR management, need for action, and that you are convinced your skill levels are up to the task will also play a huge part in your likely downfall.

Now i want to make something clear and i hope you can see this.
I ( and i am sure the others ) am in no way trying to bash you in any way or taking any pleasure out of posting this sort of stuff.
The reason(s) for it is because i/we are trying to give you the best advice possible that i/we can.
We have taken the time to post here and that in itself shows that we are only doing so because we are concerned.

You have given plenty of us good advice in the past, and we are trying to give some back to you.
I dont mind if you want to call me a jerk or whatever for posting this ( im sure i can take it ) but i would mind if you didnt take it all in and re-group your earlier thoughts and maybe slowly read through all the posts the members have posted in this thread trying to help out.

You have time on your side to decide whatever it is you are going to do what with the few months before depositing you mentioned.
I hope you use that time wisely and things start to come together.

Storm, it`s your money and your life. I don`t have a problem with you doing whatever you want to do. That`s cool, and I don`t want to argue with you or fall out.

All I would say is this. Go back up to the top of this thread and review it. There is a solid group of some of the most heavyweight players at CC who plainly think your plan is ill-advised.

Are we all wrong ?

I'm gonna respond by using the 3rd person narrative to be more objective but this is the way I see it:

1. A good and knowledgeable poker player (who's been on a good run) suddenly has a terrible run of luck and experiences a severe downswing.

2. By his own admission, his BR Management has never been a serious consideration but after this latest debacle he has given it some serious thought.

3. He thinks of a plan of action and decides to take 2 months out - in which time he plans to read up and study hard on the subject.

4. After the 2 months have elapsed his plan is to lay down 4K and play exclusively the 5/10 Limit tables and the 1/2 NL tables.


Now, I may not be Poker Genius Number 1, but I personally cannot see anything wrong in this. His proposed BR is in line with the limits and he is taking the requisite time out to get his thoughts together.

The biggest two arguments against the idea seem to be:

(1) You shouldn't go up in limits to recuperate loses.

The counter-argument to this is that by taking a significant "time out" or "cooling off" period, he should be refreshed enough to do battle with a clear head. Many people against Storm's idea here seem to assume that Storm's decision is based on anger management issues and that he's gonna dive straight back in, hot-headed, to try to win it back.

(2) You do not have the skill to compete at those levels.

Now I'm not really sure about this one but it seems that Storm's track record suggests he can mix it with these boys. I, personally, play micro-limits because I know I can beat these games and I prefer to play safe at the present time. I also treat poker as a leisure activity rather than a serious way to make money. But in the grand scheme of things these levels are hardly High Stakes Poker! They are mid-levels with the usual mix of good and bad players and Storm has already pointed out that:

"I'm good enough for 5/10 limit and 2/4 NL but I'm only going to put 4k on so I will not be bankrolled for 2/4 NL, honestly the players at 5/10 limit are really not the greatest and players at 1/2NL are pretty horrible."

Let's put the facts on the line here. A guy is going to play poker at slightly higher levels, with a fresh bankroll after a significant time out period to reflect.

No problem. Go for it say I.

Just an addendum from someone who's played a LOT of 5/10 limit: It's not a cakewalk to beat the game. It's not that the players are that great - they're not - it's that the rake comes out to such ridiculous amounts that the only people consistently beating 5/10 are the experts.

Let me put it this way: For you to break even at a 5/10 table, the rest of the table must still lose $150 per 100 hands, i.e. be -3BB/100. On average.

If there's even ONE other winning player there, the remaining four players must lose almost 4BB/100 for you to break even.

And, here comes the sucky part, there are a lot of semiprofessional regulars who do nothing but play 5/10. They're decent TAGs, who, sadly, do not lose anywhere near enough for the 5/10 games (at PokerStars, at least) to be profitable.

I've given up on 5/10 at Stars. There aren't enough fish to make up for the loss in rake, making it virtually a zero-sum game to play. I'm not good enough to beat it for any real amount of money, so I'm back to playing 3/6. Most likely I will skip 5/10 altogether and move up to 10/20 or 15/30 when I'm rolled for it.

Ah, if Paulsson's sums are correct, then out of all the posts that are against the idea, this seems to be the strongest one for steering clear. Blimey Storm, you still wanna do this!?

Storm, i'm glad you are reading and taking note of the replies, because you've got some really good ones here.

I didn't respond to your "i'm quitting online poker" post, because i've seen these posts over and over, and i thought, "yeah right, i give him a couple of days before he's back" and i'd have probably pissed you off with my response - people dont seem to appreciate my bluntness a lot of the time!

I'll give you my views on your situation. You seem like a really nice bloke, quite an emotional guy (your posts about how much you love your job for example), and clearly you got very upset and downhearted when you lost $1K this week. I do share a lot of the poster's unease though and i'll tell you why;

- $4K IS a lot of money, especially with a baby on the way. You're a family man so you know, there ISN'T any such thing as spare money when you've got kids.

- You haven't got much self control. Losing $1K in one day takes some doing, you must have been chasing your losses over and over again, and if you are truthful to yourself you will know that you were playing worse and worse the longer your session went on. You need to be able to turn the computer off - don't reload if you are stacked by a bad beat, just turn your pc off and walk away (i tend to pull the powercord out).

- You aren't as good a player as you think you are. Good players dont constantly re-deposit, they constantly cash out. I'm not the best, not by a long way, but i've deposited twice (like smd) since i started playing over 2 years ago. $100 at Littlewoods poker which lasted about 2 days (i didn't even know hand rankings when i started), and a $100 deposit to Paradise Poker, from which i've taken out over $5K and have got over $1K in play.

I'd read FP's post carefully, because I was going to type the same thing. You seem to be tackling poker from the hardest possible end. If you're multi-tabling, you're losing an edge - read John Vorhaus' Killer Poker online 1 & 2 when you are on your break. See how much effort he takes in getting notes on players (you aren't doing that, not if you are playing 4-8 tables). See how much effort he takes in picking the games to play, picking the opponents to play against. That's where you make your money, from the bad play of others. I don't see where your edge is, as FP said, you're just going to be pushing money round a table with a number of similar players, with FT or P'stars getting their little cut every pot.

- You haven't got a plan. There are no targets, no indication of WHY you are depositing, what you are looking to get out of it.

I will agree with you on a number of points though. I've never been able to get excited about 25nl. Betting 50 cents, winning pots of $2, there's just no adreniline there. I'm not a bankroll management guy either. I play better at higher levels, because i'm just not motivated by winning a $5 Sng with a first prize of $18.

I think subconciously you know this is a bad idea, which is why you posted this thread. I'd like you to give $3K to your wife, because even if you say you have her support, i cant really believe that you do. Use the other $1k to play, but DONT deposit it all at one time. Just deposit how much you need to play one session, which will make it harder to reload if you are tilting. And finally, stick to SnG's, they are perfect for someone with tilt issues as they have limited losses, and they are much easier (in my opinion) to consistently beat than cash games. But most important, try and start having fun again.

Brian when you first came to the forum you weren't playing much online - it was a while before you finally deposited on pokerstars and started playing again. I fear this is a cycle you will continue unless you change the way you approach your game.

I agree with AG and Sticker on the things they have said. But honestly - rather than suggest you drop to a lower limit in cash I suggest you try focusing on sng's and mtt's. I think no matter what limit you choose to play in cash that you are going to find yourself back where you are now at some point. If you are successful playing cash live then continue to do that. Online cash games are not working for you.

I am similar to you as far as bankroll goes - I can deposit when I want to and don't really have to mind the losses. But I do limit them so that I don't become uncomfortable with them. I would rather put more money towards doing things with my husband and planning for our future. So I don't play cash games unless it is with people from here for entertainment. I realize you are a better player than I am - but you are not better disciplined.

However it is good that you are taking time with this decision. Whatever you decide - I truly wish you luck with it.

I am in the exact same boat.

Great live results, but live games not nearby.

So I go online.

Deposit $1200. Hit the 5/10. Doh! I know, the bankroll isn't right, but being a 'live' player predominantly I'm used to setting my budget for the night, playing it and then going home.

Some turbulent times...but within 30 days I'm at $9048.

Then the downswing.

I'm now -$600

So I quit/play lower stakes to iron out the bugs in my game/study my hand histories/read Sklansky.

I'm stepping down to the 2/4 now....and see what happens.

Weirdly, I am withdrawing my cash after each session. This keeps it like a 'casino' situation and stops me doing the every-day-battle thing.

Storm, I think alot of the others have covered anything I might want to add. But what Rob posted here really pops into my head. You might want to read Alan Schoonmaker's new Book "Your Worst Poker Enemy" during your time off. It's a poker psych book and you may find some of it just a bunch of hooie, but there is alot in there that just might get you thinking about things you haven't thought about before.

thanks everyone for the input, much appriciated.

Rob, dont ever be worried about hurting my feelings be as blunt as you want with me, Im a big boy I can take it.

there were a lot of people that gave great points in this thread, If I multi quote them all it would take a whole page so in general just wanted to thank everyone.

I have a few things to add here that haven't been brought up. You say that $4000 isn't too much to miss for you; that you are taking time off to study and refresh; and that you are going to start playing at higher limits when you come back. You also say that you are not getting enough action at lower limits; that you have to multi table to get that. You also have a problem with tilting. And that you have no idea of how much you have deposited and lost.

All of this stuff is a recipe for a big time personal disaster. You are taking money from one fund to play poker. Even though it's for a buyin to the WSOP it's still taking money you don't have extra. Unless you have a trust fund availiable to you you never have money that can be easily missed. What would you do if you got injured and were unable to work? (taken from personal experiance.).

I think you are a average player who has had a great run of cards at this time. But now you have hit the wall that is always out there for poker players and you are not thinking clearly. You say that you have major leaks in your game.; no bankroll management ability; a major tilt problem; and are going to fix this by taking two months off and coming back with even more money. Please rethink this.

You need to give serious thought to your addiction to the big win high. This is what it sounds like you are chasing. You were getting that little fix everyday for some time. And now it's dried up. I would take some serious time off to see if you can live without playing poker. Put away the books, turn off the TV, and don't go to any poker sites. If you can do this for the same 2 months without jonesing then I take back what I say here. But from what you are saying it sounds like you can't. And that is a problem. You need to take the time to regroup and see what there is without poker.

Hey I say GOOD LUCK in what ever you decide in the end it is up to you

First off I apologize for the late response. This is already my 4th attempt. I've had things typed out then just deleted them fearing I came across poorly. I don't want to offend you.

These questions have a direct bearing on your plan, and here in lies the problem. You don't see that. For whatever reason, be it ego or delusion or a compulsion I don't know, but the reality is that you lose consistently. Being a losing player online, and depositing more money doesn't seem like a wise decision. I'd much rather take a far more conservative approach. Start with $100 and work with that.

I've played live 1/2 NL, and generally speaking the play that I've seen mimics the micro limits online. Lets face it, 1/2NL IS the micro level live. I really don't think you can compare 1/2NL live vs 1/2NL online.

You keep saying that you are a really good player. That may or may not be the case, but really good players don't have to constantly deposit. I've never claimed to be all that great, but I'm still on my first deposit a year+ later. What I think is happening is that you have the knowledge but for whatever reasons are unable to apply it and use it effectively. It's like you are that #1 draft pick that has plenty of potential but gets cut 2 years later because of not producing results.

Just to echo some of the other responses. Bankroll management is not your problem, there's something underlying that is preventing you from maintaining a proper BR. Here's a quote I found that applies:

Storm--

I've been on vacation and away from the forum for a while so I have no idea what recently happened to you other then what you said earlier in this thread that you lost some money. The details of what happened really are none of my business but don't let them effect a decision such as this.

I don't have much to add from what others have said in here, but I do have a few things.

1) Plugging leaks in your game is totally different from jumping up in stakes because you think that your game is more suited playing against other "more thinking" players (if that makes sense). I think that's kind of what you were referring to. If there are indeed leaks in your game, get them fixed before you make this jump if you are indeed going to.

2) Don't make a decision like this based on "losing some money". My advice to you would be to wait a while before making this decision so that the recent incident doesn't have any effect on what you ultimately decide to do.

I just think you need to take all influencing factors that maybe shouldn't be involved in a decision such as this, out of a decision such as this. Just make sure to think everything through before you decide.

[quote=Mojomax747;583045]What is really wrong with you storm?
You seem to be like a bull in a china shop with a blindfold on.
No matter what you are posting about there is always an edgy compulsion lingering around you.
Is that what we have here, are you overly compulsive?

my feeling from the start,try some adderal or something (no offense), you have some very good advice from very good people who seem to care about you,i care about people and i care about you too. you are fighting very hard not to believe what they are telling you. you are your own man, do what you feel is right , good luck storm.


p.s nothing wrong with saving extra money for a time in future when it may not be extra. life changes faster than a poker game .

taking 2 months off poker is not big deal, I have done it before. I mean even though I can not deposit on pokerstars I could always put money on full tilt but I wont because I want these 2 months off.

this whole thread has prompted my new user title.

Wow, judging from these responses there seem to be alot of good hearted and genuine people afiliated with this site... good job

you got to realize we have been around eachother for a long long long time which is why I post stuff like this I know I will get honest responses from people. BUT it was still a real big lapse in my judgement to even concider this which is why I picked this title for myself.