Would you consider A9 "Ace-Rag"?

Most would call A8 offsuit "Ace-Rag" and A-10 "not". But how about A9 offsuit?

I see many people raise pre-flop with it at a full table from early & middle position and continue to overplay it. I've read some tips from TJ Cloutier, who says A9 is a raising hand from any position in an unraised pot. I just can't grasp that. A9 just seems so weak (unless very short-handed). Harrington even calls A-10 a "trap hand" and says not to overplay it. Any personal opinions (not from a book)?

I consider it a rag and muck it often, though circumstances always plays it part regarding the situation you might be in.
If I am going to play it, then TJC's advice about raising it in an unraised pot has some substance to it.
I certainly wouldn't consider it a calling hand.
Lots of variables, circumstances, and situations to consider though when playing/raising with this hand.

I consider A J and lower ace rag

The same way I treat JJ as a low pocket pair

this is my input for tournies at least....

A9

Doesnt look good just sitting there does it? looks kind of small and vunerable.

If someone bigger came along it could easily be pushed out of the way,
so unless you plan to bully, have position or a good read on the others (of whom there should not be many considering your position) you should also push it away

I don't like A9 at all. At a full table cash game I always bin it unless it's folded to me on the button, or if I'm in cut-off when I'll raise / fold 50-50. If it's suited I'm more likely to play it. Short handed I'll sometimes raise but I prefer to limp. That way, I'm fairly comfortable that I'm ahead if an Ace flops.

I'm in the minority here I suppose, as I agree with Mr. Cloutier. However, I would also like to know the situation. Are we talking tournament or cash? If tournament, what are the blinds, your chip position, your image, etc. There is no way to give a general rule on a borderline hand such as that without that info. And actually, that applies to anything. Would you say you should always play QQ a certain way? Certainly not, and I look at A9 the same way. If it comes around to you unraised, I would not look down on making a bet to try and take the pot. If you are simply called, you see the flop. if raised, throw it away. On the flop, if it comes A93 rainbow, for example, you are sitting pretty in a money making situation. However, you just have to play cautious if Axx comes. Don't fall in love with the hand, but I wouldn't dismiss it either.

They say that as your kicker gets smaller, the value of your hand drops exponentially. AK is a solid hand, AQ gets alot worse, AJ should be played with caution, and as you reach AT, you've "fallen off the cliff and hit the ground".

I definitely consider A9 an ace-rag. I fold it unless I'm desperately shortstacked, I'm in late position for a steal, or it's suited and I can get into a cheap multiway pot.

The only reason he would be saying this is because you've projected a SUPER-tight image at the table. I don't see him condoning this play unless that and other factors (say you've over-bet a limped pot with AA before, and overbet again now with A9) came into play.

The problem with AJ/AT/A9 is that if there's an Ace on the board, plus

a) high cards, bigger than your kicker: you might have A-rag outkicked, but there's more risk of someone else having 2 pair / straight with (non-ace) high cards

b) low cards, smaller than your kicker: there's a serious risk A-rag has now made 2 pair or even a straight. Plus Aces with bigger kickers still beat you.

So you can never be sure you have a strong hand unless you hit your kicker.

My short, simple answer to OP question is that anything less than Ace + Face is automatically A-rag in my book. AJ is a fine line, but is A-rag unless in late position.

I find that playing A9 os has been profitable. If you get it in the late position in an unraised pot, a small raise can either push people off the pot or get limited action. From there, if an A does hit the board and I bet (usually 1/3 to 2/3 the pot, depending on the pot size), the pot is usually folded to me. My theory is that there are only 4 A's available, If I have one and the board has one, there is only a small chance one of the other two A's will come out or be in someone else's hand. However, that said, it brings uncertainty to your hand strength when your bet on the flop is called. A re-raise is an auto fold as you don't want to start spewing chips. If you don't hit on the board, it's check-fold around, c-bets here are not +EV. If you get lucky and everyone misses their hands you may even pull down the pot with A high!

Edit:
I forgot to add my disclaimer: This is only for late position, in an unraised pot. You don't want to play in the EP because you may get raised. Also, no matter your position, this hand simply is not strong enough to call a raise.

Just had a look in PokerTracker... A9 is basically a break-even hand for me over about 80 cash game instances. A9o slightly negative, A9s slightly positive. On a VPIP for this hand of 30%.

Well i voted "It depends. (How many limpers, table read, etc.)"

it would really depend on what position i was in, my chip stack, limpers and how well i had a read on the players who were in the pot with me really. Dont know really though, sometimes i like to call if im feeling lucky or just messing about

So, MrSticker, as I read through the various responses, it occurs to me that maybe my poll vote and personal opinion don't quite mesh. I chose it depends, but in reality I don't think that is a valid choice for the poll, at least not based on your question. Neither is the third option.

A-rag is a specific state, it doesn't change back and forth based on scenario. That is playability of the hand. The only two possible answers are "yes" and "no" (again based on your question). It is either A-rag or it isn't. It isn't A-rag sometimes, that's like being sort of dead. Now, let's be clear, if I was on the button, it was folded around to me, and I look down to see A9, then I would be raising with it. That does not change my opinion of it. A9, to me, is still A-rag. The difference is that it has now become somewhat playable based on circumstance, which is really what your poll is asking.

It depends on a number of things> my chip stack>my reads on other players>if the short stack goes allin> theres lots of things involved, yesterday i got beat with A 9 twice and with pocket 10`s twice, buck

I had something happen like this last year in football. I lost $50 when a guy kicked a 58 yard field goal in 40 mph crosswinds. Then I lost another $50 on the replay of the kick. Hell, I didn't think he could do it twice in a row.

This thread is quite interesting for me because last night I was in a 30£ freezeout 60 players at my local casino, and i had 1300 chips left, the blinds were 400 - 800, I had rubbish all night, I hit A 9 of suite and went all in on the big blind, I had a shot of nicking the blinds or maybe get a caller, I got two callers, I lost to an ACE king, he had the better kicker, so ACE 9, rubbish hand. weak kicker.

For me, A9 is a "stealing hand", worth a raise to try and pinch the blinds from late position in an unraised pot. Especially in a tourney, if the blinds are reasonably large.

In any other situation, it`s in the bin.

I had picked "It depends", as it's not weak in heads-up play.

True, but so are ATC . If you try to steal the blinds and someone calls, your A might not be live anymore, and an A on the flop with someone raising into you doesnt give you many options, and a mid/low pair 9 on the flop with someone raising into you also narrows your options.;

So I say go for it and raise with A9, but when it comes to trying to steal the blinds, ATC might cost less/be easier to fold if you miss/hit lightly

Clearly it`s not a great hand, Busty.

But then, if you win with a good hand it`s not a steal, is it ?

...although if you can get the action heads-up, it's a favourite to any other non-ace or non-pair, so you could argue a raise with A9 in late position isn't actually a steal. Even the weakest Ace hand, A-6 offsuit is a 54-46% favourite against KQ suited heads-up, so raise to isolate, because it's not a strong multi-way hand.

Very true.

The only issue is when you have to put your opponent on a hand. If you raise 3x-4xBB and they call, what could they possibly have?

It's at that point that I start worrying about pairing my ace with weak kicker on the board, and would be more confident if I hit top pair being 8's with 5 kicker