Why Raise 3x BB When Opening in Position?

Can someone explain why the standard pre-flop raise in position is 3 times the BB? A small raise like this usually gives the BB odds to call. Is this why? Because we want the BB to call out of position?

In small stakes, the BB will often call anyway when he doesn't have odds, which is when we raise more than 4x BB. Shouldn't we raise as much as we expect to be called, unless we are stealing with ATC?

How is this for a strategy? Raise more in position with a decent hand, and raise less in position when stealing or with a great hand.

How does 3X give the BB odds to call?

As I see it, a minraise really does make a loose call attractive to the BB, while 3X or 4X is much less attractive. But if you raise much more than that, then you're almost exclusively going to get action from players with excellent hands, and a good chance actually better than yours since you don't have AA or KK every time.

It really depends on the game you're in and how much action you want. In general though, I'm trying to find the number where opponents who'll be OOP after the flop give me action with hands that perform badly against my range.

That number changes from game to game - 3BB is just an average / common one. In some live games, for example, the standard opening raise is more like 5BB and 4BB certainly isn't out of the question in low-stakes online games.

Whether you're in a tournament or cash game will have an effect too. In a tournament you're probably raising a bit smaller because there's the added pressure of getting crippled or eliminated to dissuade your opponents from messing around with mediocre hands. So you keep the raises smaller because 1: a big raise really will restrict your action to monster hands and 2: you don't need to bet as much to steal the blinds.

I never raise to 3x fwiw. In cash i raise to 4x and in tournies to 2.5x

A pot sized bet in an unopened pot is 3.5x, so these "standard raises" are generally a little less than pot (3x) or a little more (4x). I've been all over with opening raise sizes. I used to always open 4x, then I tried smaller raises (3x) from the button and SB, and now I just open for 3x from all positions.

3 (raise) + 1 (bb) + 0.5 (sb) = 4.5 bbs

4.5/3 = 1.5:1

I don't see how this is giving the BB 'odds to call'. It's giving him a pretty crappy price, he'll be OOP, and you'll have initiative. Sounds like a pretty good recipe to me.

How can you even hope to put anyone on a range of hands if you don't raise the pot? Just think about the number of times you or someone has
hit there hopeless drawing hand to crack good hands. The purpose of the raise is to weed out the crap hands and reduce the number of players in the hand.

I always open for 3xBB in cash games. It allows me to c-bet a high percentage without bloating the pot too much when I'm stealing. It also disguises my hand (AA is the same raise as 72), and makes my preflop decisions easier when multi-tabling.

In tourneys, I'll usually start at 4xBB, then gradually move down as the blinds increase. By the late stages, 2.25xBB is often enough to get respect, as people tighten up.

Yes, some people will call with almost any two cards in the BB after a 3xBB raise. But that is a leak, and if it results in me playing a pot with them in position with a stronger hand, that's definitely a good thing.

Yes, I think this is the ideal answer, so why is 3xBB quoted so much?

I don't understand what you mean. Isn't a pot sized bet in an unopened pot just 1.5 BBs?

Most of the hands I'd be opening with in position aren't huge hands, so there aren't too many calling hands that are worse than 1.5:1. Therefore, they have odds to call, right? If you really want a fold, then it seems like raising more than 3xBB is better. But if you do get called, at least you have position.

The blinds are forced bets, so technically the first person to open is actually raising. So, if I'm raising preflop, the pot is 1BB + 1SB + 1BB (mine); which is 2.5BB. Going to 3xBB means I'm raising 2BB into a 2.5BB pot, which is almost pot. That's why most poker strategy recommends increasing your raise by 1BB for each limper.

But if they call they don't get a free showdown. Say you raise 78s and they have K3o. Technically they're ahead and obviously they have odds to call. But then flop comes Q42r they can't do too much. They check you cbet then what can they do? Being oop just sucks without a hand, so we raise less because we like calls. Generally speaking when we raise from the button we want the blinds to call with a wide range, just because we can outplay them so bad postflop with position and initiative. So we want to raise as much as they'll make that mistake with. If we can raise 10x and they'll still call with crap, we should be doing that. If we can only do 3x we can do that. I like minraising the button, because they call more than 3x raises.

I've always thought the pre raise value should more be a function of stack size... ie a .25/.50 when everyone has $200 in front will play out more like a tight $1/$2. Or should, anyway.

FYP

With deep effective stacks you can and should be playing more hands because calling a PFR or even a 3bet (if stacks are really deep) is a small fraction of a stack and your implied odds are huge.

Online I raise it 4-5x the bb. There's a lot of idiots out there who will call you with horrible hands and, just because their SOOTED, they think they're good. So raise 4-5x isn't bad ONLINE.

Live is different, because thats real poker and you don't as many idiots live compared to online.

Cheers

because 3xbb is big enough to weed some out and small enough not to cripple you if you flop junk and your opponent connects, you could always raise 4,5,6x but then you lose that much more if your opponent connects or just wants to make a play at you.

when you vary due to hand strength, you will be more vulnerable.

Seriously? I honestly doubt you've played much of either. Live players are horrible and standard raises in a typical low stakes live game are commonly 8x to 12x.

Also if you'd just log off there would be 1 fewer idiot.

Zach, I understand what you are saying except for this part. Could you please explain?

Loose $1/$2.

I asked one in the BB how could he call a raise, from the button, well he was in the BB, the raise was 4X the BB, he said it was only .08c, and he called with 43 OS, well later on in the game i made him pay for it , I raised with, AK well on the button......
Bump up your raise to get them to fold, most will fold with a 3X BB raise, but there are some you will need to raise even more.
Hope that helps, you should go for 1X the BB for every limper. So 3 X BB + 1 X BB per limper, it has helped me, thanks CC members.

Some reasons for raising less :

1) To give ourselves a better immediate price. The smaller our raise, the less often it has to succeed in order for it to be immediately profitable.

2) To encourage action from players OOP. Yes winning the blinds is nice, but if someone folds PF, even if they have the best hand, it's generally only a very small mistake. We want to force our opponents to make the biggest mistakes possible, which are going to happen on later streets.

3) To be able to play more 3-bet pots in position. If we open smaller, a 3-bet is generally going to be smaller, so the greater our implied odds are, so we are going to be able to continue with a wider range of hands.

Hmm, I hadn't thought of that, but I think it's a very valid reason. Thanks for pointing that out. How come none of the books I have on poker ever talk about 3-betting? They might give an example that includes it, but they don't specifically call it 3-betting and discuss it at length. Do you know of any books that do?

Cause most poker books are written by live donkament players where a 3bet equals an all-in

Just saying that say there's a player with K2o in the BB, I raise button SB folds. If it's a 3x raise, they probably fold without a thought. If I minraise some people are like "omg a minraise I has oddz I call" when of course they don't because even if they hit the K I can barrel them off it possibly (or just win a big pot when I have better K, point is I have position and can hand-read much better than they can) and they rarely hit that. They're right they have odds if the hands are face up, but they're not and I have position on them so they're going to have to make a pretty big hand to get much of my stack.

Also the 3-bet point is valid, but I've found a lot of people 3-bet quite large in relation to the pot just to make the pot bigger so they're more comfortable so they can like stack TPTK. I do call a lot of 3-bets in position that go like 2 BBs -> 6 BBs. But there are a few that make it 9-10 BBs so it's not quite as attractive to call so I generally 4-bet or fold there.

I like to raise the standard amount when I have the goods...Sometimes, not all if I know I can not limit the field becasue of other noivce players. They will at times beat you by calling your raise, and we know they should not have called. In fact, it would not matter how many BB's you decided to raise with, some of these players would call you down with anything..and have....That's poker.....This is nothing new....We know the standard raise tactic works becasue in the long run it is a proven tool to have in the tool box.

My theory after reading all this and experimenting a bit with different raise sizes is that 3x BB is probably good at higher stakes, but at the lowest stakes, where I play, you can easily make your opponents make bigger mistakes by raising more. I find it makes it easier to get more money in the pot when I have a big hand. With 3x BB, they make the same mistake but it costs them less and keeps the pot smaller. 3-betting is really rare, too, at these stakes.

If your varying your bets based on your hand sizes and not the # of players in the pot, it often gives away the strength of your hand and any decent player is going to pick up on it. Just my opinion

You pretty much nailed it on the head here. Your raise size is entirely dependent upon the opponent. You want to take the lines that exploits your opponents mistakes the most while keeping yourself from being exploited. Since you're still in the micros and no one has a clue how to exploit anything, you can pretty much disregard the latter half and work on exploiting your opponents as effectively as possible.

Since the most common mistakes players at your limits make are A) calling too much with marginal hands and B) Playing too many hands OOP, the optimal strategy is to force them to play large pots when you have position.

will call you with horrible hands and, just because their SOOTED,

Cheers[/quote]

Lets hope the cards are plastic, they are easier to get the black stuff off!

I would raise 3 times the bb if i have a really good hand against a looser table. Raising more with a premium hand against a loose table usually gets your more money when you win the pot.

If its a good/tight table I would reraise 2-2.5 times the bb.

Exactly, on the higher limits (from NL100 higher) is raising to 2,5 BB, not 3 BB, pretty good option. IF you try it, it really helps your winrate ussualy.

I think it is only necessary if you have outstanding cards. It is also a good way to get other people out of the pot, but in any case, with very good cards, it is effective.

I'm not understanding what you've said here?? Are you insinuating we just limp in usually?
What about raising for value to build a pot while in position against our opponents? Isn't this what we're essentially doing?

Live play raises are usually higher from my experience.
Also, 10NL & under online, I tend to raise 4.5 > 5x (depends on table, which also seems to depend on what poker site.. ie. FR on Fulltilt... 75% Rocks on the table, Doyles 75% Loose Calling Stations at a similiar stakes).
In tournament play.... early levels 3x,... mid-late levels 2.2 > 2.4x (occassionally I will vary the size of my raise, not in relation to hand strength but more so to position &/or my opponent's playing style (ie. LooseCallingStation 'huge' blind defender.. raise 4x).

If only this truly worked 100% of the time... you'll still get called by 74o on occasion.

I think part of the reason its around the 3BB mark is for stealing from the blinds. The higher your raise the more often the button steal has to work to show a profit.

Ideally you would like to raise to 2-2.5BB as this gives you the best odds when stealing (thats based on the idea that most people have a calling range which they will call anything between 2-5BB with regardless)

However this means that your value raises on the button also have to be very small too, otherwise you are just announcing you have a good hand PF, when infact you want to try and get an extra bet from them.

So 5BB is great from a value point of view yet poor from a stealing one as now your steal success has to be much higher.

2BB is great from a stealing point of view but the trade off is the value you lose when you have a good hand.

So a one size fits all bet size is 3-3.5BB. Its small enough that your steal success doesn't need to be ridiculously high to show a small profit, yet its high enough to get some value (although not max values) from your better hands.