who says that pre-flop all-ins are necessary?

I would like to point something out, something that i myself have only recently come to agree with and understand. That instead of getting your money in with AK pre flop and risk that QJs player to knock you out.
Make such a decision after seeing a flop, and seeing how the other player may react to the cards. It is hardly a tradgedy if the flop goes 10 9 7 and he plays strong, now you can get away with it. Instead of having that same 10-9-7 flop come on, but you are both all in pre flop, and he hits one of his needed cards on the turn or river.

There is a lot more that goes into the decision than the cards including the stage of the game, the BB to stack size ratios, are you playing the hand against the donkey, are you in a small stack (1500) 9 player SNG where it's worth it to race off early and know you have a great chance to win if you double up early, etc.

-Raymond

Sometimes they are necessary, sometimes they aren't necessary.

So your example is that you should not push all-in preflop so you can let your opponent to push you off the best hand postflop? There are certain spots where pushing, folding, or just calling can be a correct play, but your example hardly supports your premise. The good thing about your example is that if you shove AK he probably folds QJ preflop plus you don't allow him to push you off the best hand when he flops a draw and you still only have AK high.

Personally I take lots into consideration.
1.Being the stage if the tourney.
2.Being my starting hand(I rarley ge tmy chips in with anything less than QQ,depending on my chip stack/pos/and commitment).
3.Being my position,and tring to isolate as much of the table as I can.
4.Being my chip count,and if the raise is going to force me all in anyway.
That is just my personal opinion and how I look at all in pf situations.

well of course their are different situations which cause for different plays. But, i am generalizing the all-in pre flop move, and that there have been plenty of bad beats coming my way due to pushing it in with no understanding of what the cards to come will be. Im just pointing out that before i used to get alotta bad beats, because i rushed my money into the middle pre flop. Now my bad beats are less because i make conscious decisions post flop. And to reply to zachvac the person pre flop calls you all in with that QsJs, and may push you off the hand post flop, but hes pushing you off with the best hand, he would be a favorite on a 10 9 7 flop to beat AK, so folding AK there is a correct move.

Really?

Board: Ts 9h 7c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 52.715% 52.72% 00.00% 133601 0.00 { AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 47.285% 47.28% 00.00% 119839 0.00 { QJs, QJo }

I think what Phil might be getting at is that in tournaments, sometimes you give up a little bit of equity to abate the risk of busting out of the event.

As zachvac has shown, on the flop for example, you are a very slight favorite, but that slight edge may not be worth risking your tournament life.

An alternative would be to wait until the turn to apply the pressure, where you might have more fold equity vs a draw since he only has once shot at hitting it on the river.

Naturally all the other factors that leftside and pop mentioned have to factored in any decision.

Donkey Kong

My apologies I incorrectly calculated the odds. Its pretty much 50-50 though.

yes. i agree AK is a hand you would like to see a flop with. if its early in a tourney i definaly don't want to be all in with just ace high. stack sizes have a lot to do with whether i'm all in pre or not. i rarely get all in pre w/>13BB's. also if i will have position after the flop then i'm more likely to see a flop. out of position i tend to raise more pre. later in a tourney when the blinds are high then i dont mind going all in with AK. i don't mind just picking up the pot pre flop and welcome a coin flip.

ive played so many people who im mtts who get there money allin with aq ak,like its the magic formula to poker sucsess in tourneys ,its a powerful hand but still only a drawing hand ,to get its full worth ive found that seeing a flop is the best way to extract full value,shortstackers frequently shove with ak and moan when a big stack crushes them with pocket 2s(this is not a bad beat!!!!) next time you shove with ak pf remember that you are still drawing!!

AK is very useful in the final stages of a tournament but sometimes you may want to see the flop before moving all in, I do believe how you play AK depends on your opponents skill level, if your opponent is an idiot that will call an all in with a an above average stack against you with QJ then you may want to do a standard 3xBB raise, and maybe you may get him to fold if you c-bet, that is unless he is also a complete calling station then you have you self a dilemma with a missed flop so then is the time to just fold.

AK is the most overrated hand in Poker. It's one of the best racing hands you can have, but that's what it's for...racing! Overbetting preflop with AK can put you in an extremely dangerous position if you don't hit your cards. On the other hand, AK is perfect if your chip stack is low enough and need to race. If I see 3 other guys pushing all in before my action, I'll fold my AK and save my chip stack from a gamble, tyvm.

AK has been used as an example so much for this kind of stuff, but if you stop and think that isn't the point. The point is whether you want your money all in pre flop or after seeing a flop. It all depends on the situation. The thread opener wasn't very specific, but if you see AK after a raise, by all means come over the top for everything and take away his raise + blinds + ante's. But if you see AK in an unopened pot, it is better to raise to 3BB's and take a flop against any takers, and c-bet it. If the villain has something like 88 and see's a flop of J-9-2 and you c-bet your AK, they'll fold. But if you are all in preflop, you don't give the player with 88 a chance to fold.

Actually you get less value, they can easily put you AK and fold if either flops.

Thats how you win. By pushing small edges over and over and over. = profit.

In a way I agree with that, but in another way i totally disagree. If this was the case you are indeed gambling no? I dont gamble in poker, especially not with such close odds. At least I try not too. I get profit by putting myself in the best possible position to win the pot.

that is a very wrong thought..you dont have chips to see flops during the late stages of a tournament so why would you let the player with JQ see the flop and yourself..and then decide

most decisions there are taken PRE-FLOP

All in preflop turns a game of skill into a game of chance.

I hate to go all in preflop and only do it if I have to or if I have a good chip lead against one of the shorter stacks.

There is just no need to risk all your chips and bust out on a chance that you will hit.

The only hands I'll do it with willingly are KK and AA.

Sometimes you will be forced into it with other hands but I try avoid it if I can.

I agree 100 percent. And everyone, understand that I am and have been generalizing. Yes, if it is the late stages in the tournament and the move calls for a pre-flop all-in then so be it, I am not arguing against this move. Simply the general thought of the pre-flop all-in move.

In cash games, getting in when you are 53% to win is great if you have good BRM. In tournaments, whether you take the small edge is entirely about whether you think you get better chances later in the game. If you think you are outplaying the other players, by all means give up this battle (if the pot odds don't demand a call) and take the greater edge later.
If you have a large stack or feel you could eliminate a better opponent (Gold vs. Cunningham for example) you might want to take a small edge an occasionally even a slight disadvantage if you feel that the odds offered are better than that you get from playing your opponents another way.

All ins preflop do not turn a game of skill into a game of chance. They simply make the skill come before the flop, and the chance come later.

I read some of this and from what I see, Zach is basically trying to say you want to take every small edge u have, thats how winning players build their stack to win tourneys, are you going to be succesful with those small edge moves everytime? of course not but not pushing just because you think edge is not big enough or ur afaid of busting out is kind of bad.