Where do you lay down AKo preflop?

A good friend of mine who is playing reasonably high and making a lot of money told me NEVER to lay down AK preflop with 100BB stacks. You just lose too much value. I respect his play very much and usually listen to him, but how can you possibly not lay down in the 2 examples I'm giving here? Does anyone not lay them down? What do you guys think?



PokerStars Game #14787614612: Hold'em No Limit ($3/$6) - 2008/01/24 - 11:21:04 (ET)

Table 'Muscida' 6-max Seat #4 is the button

Seat 1: OGURI ($655 in chips)

Seat 2: foldophobia ($1048.70 in chips)

Seat 3: krmont22 ($1444.35 in chips)

Seat 4: adam001 ($766 in chips)

Seat 5: MrRensink ($2436.10 in chips)

Seat 6: WrongButton ($757 in chips)

MrRensink: posts small blind $3

WrongButton: posts big blind $6

*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to MrRensink []

OGURI: folds

foldophobia: raises $15 to $21

krmont22: folds

adam001: folds

MrRensink: raises $39 to $60

WrongButton: raises $110 to $170

foldophobia: folds

MrRensink: folds

WrongButton collected $141 from pot

*** SUMMARY ***

Total pot $141 | Rake $0

Seat 1: OGURI folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 2: foldophobia folded before Flop

Seat 3: krmont22 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 4: adam001 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 5: MrRensink (small blind) folded before Flop

Seat 6: WrongButton (big blind) collected ($141)



PokerStars Game #14885009663: Hold'em No Limit ($2/$4) - 2008/01/28 - 11:13:54 (ET)

Table 'Lutetia IV' 6-max Seat #4 is the button

Seat 1: BlaznAcesAA ($120.70 in chips)

Seat 2: krmont22 ($398 in chips)

Seat 3: MrRensink ($663 in chips)

Seat 4: IDontEatFish ($442.40 in chips)

Seat 5: canucksku ($486.40 in chips)

Seat 6: NoTalentTom ($465.40 in chips)

canucksku: posts small blind $2

NoTalentTom: posts big blind $4

*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to MrRensink []

BlaznAcesAA: raises $8 to $12

krmont22: folds

MrRensink: raises $24 to $36

IDontEatFish: raises $406.40 to $442.40 and is all-in

canucksku: folds

NoTalentTom: folds

BlaznAcesAA: folds

MrRensink: folds

IDontEatFish collected $90 from pot

IDontEatFish: doesn't show hand

*** SUMMARY ***

Total pot $90 | Rake $0

Seat 1: BlaznAcesAA folded before Flop

Seat 2: krmont22 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 3: MrRensink folded before Flop

Seat 4: IDontEatFish (button) collected ($90)

Seat 5: canucksku (small blind) folded before Flop

Seat 6: NoTalentTom (big blind) folded before Flop

Lets just say that the dynamics of 3/6 6-max poker involve a lot of light preflop raising. So by the time you know you're beat against a light 3-bettor, you have pot odds to ship it in with AK. I probably snap shove both hands in this example, unless the cold 4-bettors are super nitty.

I would have called 100 % of the time the 2nd hand. 100 %. If villain got KK/AA he would have definetely wouldnt go all in from 24 % to 400 $ becaus he wont get called. He most probably got QQ/JJ. I would have definetely went for the coin flip.

And about the first hand i would have folded too since this guy played his hand pretty strong and since its 3$/6$ limits not 0.01$/0.02$ he wouldnt bet 100 $ on 28o

If you should fold either of these, it's the second one. If his range consists of above average pairs and AK, then you do not have enough pot odds to call. You need to be about 45% or better to win. You are not better than 45% versus any above average pair (88+). AK is the more likely than AA or KK combined (from a combinatorial perspective), but you are only slightly +EV against AK, whereas you are waaay -EV versus AA or KK. However, I'm not experienced with 6-max NL cash games, so my range might be unrealistic.

In the first hand, you're getting better than 2:1 to call, so I think folding is out of the question since you're 30% to flop TPTK or better. I doubt a shove is -EV either.

On the 1st one you are definitely getting pot odds .. You obviously have both players in each situation called.. The second one he pushes hard and its a coin flip.. It's a cash game not a tourney so some people have a problem with getting their chips in on a coin flip.. If you are grinder you might fold and wait for a better opportunity to take some chips..

On hand 1 I cold call. On hand 2 I need a read on this guy. Has he done anything out of line like that before? The read to gain info on his range is needed tomake the correct choice.

Without the knowledge of how these people were playing before, I would have gone all in, no problem. From just looking at the hand history it looks like people were getting pushy. With a big push from you they might just back down as well. Besides, you're a coin toss from a win.... I hope.

If you think they have aces of kings you should lay it down. If you think they have TT-QQ, lay it down OOP.

I can think of twice in my short poker life where I layed them down. One of them was when the BB accidently flipped over AA preflop...lol. Funny thing is I had AK sooooted and almost called.

I think that I may actually lay this down in the situation where I was last to act and there was a large raise, re-raise in front of me, I was short stacked and bubbling in a tournament. I really like to at least see the flop with a hand like this. It is great because you can get away from it if you didn't hit. That is my advice.

I say live a little bit, after all its just money, you'll make more. Besides you have one of the better starting hands in poker. AK (flip the coin)

It all depends on which reads You have on the 2 players + what Your table image is. Have You been raising and re-rasing alot or often. The other players are obviosly more willing to push with hands like 10-10, J-J, QQ or above, if players are slightly loose and You have a loose image maybe even A-Q.

In hand number 1 I would defenitely consider a call. Hand number two I would probably lay down. Theres is always something fishy going on when players makes unusual large bets like this. In my experience they are usually trying to trigger your couriosity into calling. Meaning they have a monster

Both hands are a definite reraise in my opinion.
AK is a hand to go to war with.

I would have to say that folding to a raise and then a re-raise is the correct play in a Cash game because any pair beats AK pre-flop so at best you're racing. If any player has AA then you have to hit 2 out of 3 kings or running straight cards. If any player has KK then you're drawing to hit 1 out of 3 remaining aces or straight cards. It's a tough lay-down, but there's always another chance later in a cash game. If it was a tourney, i would shove for sure. Also, depending on the stack sizes, you may be giving them better odds to call if you shove, instead of making them want to fold.

In early position, it is okay to lay it down. It is especially okay to lay it down if someone raises by a huge amount right before you and you are in early position. If you can get a read on your opponents, sometimes you can be the one who raises, and that can somewhat tell you about the kinds of cards your opponents have pre flop depending on who calls.

I know there are people out there will defend big slick till the day they die. Lately I've been getting crushed by any 2 and of course by pairs when I have AK. Then just the other day I read this. It is from Daniel Negreanu's Hold'em Wisdom For All Players Chapter 18 "What's the Big Deal About Big Slick" I'll just type the first half page and you'll definately get my drift.

"When you watch poker on TV you'll hear the commentators refer to AK as a monster hand. Commonly known as Big Slick, AK is often grouped with hands like AA, KK and QQ.
This is a big mistake.
Sure, it's nice to look down at your hole cards and find an AK, but more often than not, if you end up playing a big pot with this hand you'll be statistically behind. The most likely event is a coin flip situation, where the outcome is close to 50-50.
The following statistic should open your eyes a bit. Did you know that a pocket pair of deuces will beat AK 53 percent of the time?
Yes, that's right, even a lowly pair of deuces is favorite over powerful Big Slick. It's even worse off against some other premium starting hands it will often face."

If you want to read more buy the book. So think what you want, but in my experience I have definately lost more when it came to a race, when I held Bull Sh...I mean Big Slick.

I agree with you Richco.I see players over play AK too many times like theyre positive three goin to win.It is such a dangerous hand andd i see it beat with low pairs almost half of the time.

I don't mind folding AK suited or off. I am sure that a reraise means strong hand so a lay down shows discipline in both cases. Patience is the best policy. X

I would call in both i think, in the first example, the chances that he had AA wasnt that big i think in the second, he was pushing, he probably had QQ or JJ i think.

I can definatly see folding both times here and you can also be justified to call both times here as well. Of course in both cases the best spot your going to be in is a coin flip. Ive lost a lot of times with A K and the hand truely sucks. I remember one time on Absolute poker in some good private freeroll a while back I got AK twice within 4 or 5 hands. I was aggresive both times like everyone would in a freeroll with AK. Both times I ended up putting the money in preflop and both times lost to AA and ended up busting after being one of the chipleaders in the tourney. It was truely sick for that to happen to me. The point is though, to never get carried of way with AK, cuz your never really going to be that much of a favorite in a hand with it if your even a favorite.

I think almost no one is going to 4-bet light so i'm probably always folding to a 4-bet but im moving in most of the time if the player 3-bets light

it's a cash game, presumably you're playing within your limits, so ship it. you go bust, buy back in.

richko, you made a really good point. and lately i have been laying down ak off suit later in tournaments when i have been doing well. i guess it is okay to lay it down to a strong raise or reraise after you raise. i am sticking by the late position call being okay. especially if no one else calls or a few just call with no raises.