What are you, an idiot?

Well if so you could be in luck!

I'd like to discuss bluffing and I don't mean flop cbets, I mean big, scary, stack killing bluffs. Problem is that no one ever posts them. I guess it's the fear of looking stupid or something. So to overcome the fear, I'll give an incentive to post your bluffs and your thought process; straight cash homey.

$15 (on FTP) to the person who best talks about and demonstrates bluffing.

A few additional rules:
1. Cash games only. Shoving all your chips in a tourney is easy. I mean it's a tourney, who cares?

2. Effective stacks must be 100bb or greater and you need to at least put a committing portion of them in jeopardy.

3. I'll pick the winner on Sunday.

4. You don't have to win the hand to use it (in fact for the lolz it might better your chances if you shoved an underpair into quads or something) but if the bluff was successful that's fine too.

5. Your post MUST contain a HH. If you forge it, I'll contact Stars and FTP to turn on your doomswitches.


Here are a couple of HHs to illustrate the types of hands I'm looking to see:

Guess he didn't see the Ace on the board???
Full Tilt - $1 NL - Holdem - 7 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

SB: $125.25
Hero (BB): $100.00
UTG: $186.20
UTG+1: $210.25
MP: $118.80
CO: $100.10
BTN: $249.45

SB posts SB $0.50, Hero posts BB $1.00

Pre Flop: (pot: $1.50) Hero has J♠ K♦

UTG raises to $5.00, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls $4.00

Flop: ($10.50, 2 players) A♥ 3♠ 4♥
Hero checks, UTG bets $9.00, Hero raises to $23.00, UTG calls $14.00

Turn: ($56.50, 2 players) 2♠
Hero bets $25.50, UTG calls $25.50

River: ($107.50, 2 players) 8♠
Hero bets $46.50 and is all-in, UTG calls $46.50

Hero shows J♠ K♦ (High Card, Ace)
UTG shows K♠ K♣ (One Pair, Kings)
UTG wins $197.50

And a winner (note the pro play turn min raise! )
Full Tilt - $1 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

UTG: $46.05
UTG+1: $95.00
MP: $101.50
MP+1: $25.00
CO: $43.60
BTN: $100.00
Hero (SB): $100.00
BB: $118.65

Hero posts SB $0.50, BB posts BB $1.00

Pre Flop: (pot: $1.50) Hero has A♥ Q♠

fold, UTG+1 calls $1.00, fold, MP+1 calls $1.00, fold, fold, Hero raises to $6.00, BB calls $5.00, fold, fold

Flop: ($14.00, 2 players) 7♦ 6♥ K♥
Hero bets $10.00, BB calls $10.00

Turn: ($34.00, 2 players) 9♦
Hero checks, BB bets $15.00, Hero raises to $30.00, BB calls $15.00

River: ($94.00, 2 players) 8♦
Hero bets $54.00 and is all-in, fold

Hero wins $91.00


So let me see them and I do hope this leads to some discussion on a part of the game that's too rarely talked about.

Ed Miller, one of stoxpoker instructors, has a book called Small Stakes No Limit Hold'em where he co-authored with Matt Flynn and Sunny Mehta. This book was designed to crush 200NL. But honestly, it works for any poker in general.
On page 274-275, there's a chapter on overbetting the pot. It's a very effective weapon.

Excerpts from the chapter of this book.

"An overbet on the flop can be a very effective weapon, and many
novice players don’t utilize it enough. It requires a solid
understanding of the range war (your opponent’s range and his
perception of your range)."

"With an overpair and an SPR of about 2.5, you are almost always
committed in this spot. The board is extremely coordinated, and you
are out of position. Pushing all-in protects the pot and leaves you with
no decision to make on the turn. When we suggest a line like this to players, they sometimes say things like “But, better hands aren’t folding, and worse hands aren’t calling.”
This way of thinking leads to errors. Don’t think in dualities: “My
hand is better or worse than my opponent’s hand.” Think in terms of
ranges and equity. If you are playing the range war correctly, your opponent will fold hands that he should call with, and he will call with hands he should fold."

He provides many hand examples of how useful and deadly the overbets can be.

You just demonstrated these examples. There's nothing idiotic about the hands you've shown.

I've read SSNL and really liked it but neither of the hands I posted really relate to the passage you quoted (there was no overbet in either).

As for the idiot thing it was just trying to get people in here and posting.

While you're able to perform these deadly overbet bluffs, I doubt I can do it at the stakes I play at. Nearly every river shoves I've done while holding the nuts, I have been called every time by marginal hands since it's 5NL Rush. So too bad I got nothing to show that meets your requirements. My perception of their calling ranges was so wide where shoving on the river was -EV. If I played at the stakes where their perception of my range can get them to fold while I can estimate their folding ranges, I would have hands to post on this thread. only have 27k hands so far this year on cash games.

Oh. You're right. Many players fear overbetting and embarrassed about posting them on this site if they have lost the pot from bluffing. But thanks to your thread, I might start posting them if I find myself in those situations. Thanks for the thread.

Do the stakes matter?

Yes I am an idiot 5NL RUSH (one of the worst played hands I think I've ever played just watching the replay is embarrassing):

View hand 834792
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

UTG: $5.19
UTG+1: $7.70
UTG+2: $5.28
MP1: $2.12
MP2: $5.11
CO: $9.93
BTN: $2.07
SB: $3.67
Hero (BB): $7.83

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is BB with K ♠ A ♣
2 folds, UTG+2 raises to $0.15, 4 folds, SB calls $0.13, Hero raises to $0.65, UTG+2 calls $0.50, SB calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.95) 8 ♥ 7 ♠ 5 ♠ (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1, UTG+2 calls $1, SB folds

Turn: ($3.95) 2 ♠ (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets $2, Hero calls $2

River: ($7.95) 7 ♣ (2 players)
Hero bets $4.18 all in, UTG+2 calls $1.63 all in

Final Pot: $11.21
UTG+2 shows 7 ♦ 7 ♥ (four of a kind, Sevens)
Hero shows K ♠ A ♣ (a pair of Sevens)
UTG+2 wins $10.47
(Rake: $0.74)

Actually I'll give you an example of an overbet that went astray recently against me. There's fifty in the pot preflop, the board comes three clubs, giving me a mid flush as I have the 75C in my hand, the lady on my immediate left pushes her whole 300 dollar stack into the middle with a set. Well guess what, everyone folded back around the table to me but I'm the guy calling because I'm the guy that's probably got her beat.

The only hand calling an overbet is usually a winning hand, just as I pointed out above. That was in a 1/2 nl live game. Dan Harrington in his cash book points out that overbets are generally not useful and you shouldn't resort to them much.

In EM's example the SPR is around 2.5

In your example the SPR is 6

Its not quite the same.

WV I'm not a big fan of how this hand played out. Ill try and explain why.

1. I'm never calling an UTG raise from the blinds with a hand like KJ.

2. I'm probably not calling a raise from the CO/BTN with KJo but might do it with KJs

3. I wouldnt CR that flop. Are you ever CR that flop with an Ace? When I call OOP from the blinds I lead quite a bit, so I would have led that flop as a bluff.

4. He calls, now if I were going to continue I would need to pick up some equity on the turn. If I held KJs then the turn brings in a FD and I fire again.

5. Obviously the river brings in the flush so if I held KJs then I bet expecting to have the nuts. However if it misses then I'm firing 3/4 pot max (my pot is a bit smaller as I didnt CR) because if he has AJ is he folding? for him to fold I need him to be on a very weak ace which also picked up a FD on the turn or an underpair like JJ. I think people still call too much with AK/AQ to ever consider bluffing them off those hands. AJ might fold... but as he is UTG his range should be high aces and PP and against the high aces I have little chance of bluffing.

When you bet the turn you never fold out an ace here because AK thinks well I have an ace and the river might be a 5 so when you bet the turn you have to bet the river, but I wouldn't double barrel that turn unless I picked up some equity (because when I fire the river, sometimes my bluff will work and sometimes it will fail but in addition sometimes I will make the best hand thus reducing the cost of the bluff)

I, on the other hand, think it's an awesome example of the bluff that should have worked. There was an A, a possible straight (unlikely) and a possible flush on board. On what planet would the KK hold up? He just got stubborn -- or the raiser had a table image that made it easier.

Not a matter of playing the cards you hold (and I usually fold KJ OOP also, especially against a UTG raise). The question is what was Hero representing? AA, I suppose. That's the hand that fits this betting pattern.

Good idea for a thread. I've been playing baby Rush lately, though, so I can't count any otherwise appropriate plays there. Nobody has a read on me, and I may or may not have notes on others. I never bluff, anyway.

Theoretically (), a bluff would work as well or better in Rush, since many players fold if they miss. I suspect a bluff/overbet often --and those times I do call, it is a bluff or overbetting a mediocre hand a medium percentage (1/8?) of the time. The other times, I'm crushed. So it's not really cost-effective to risk the stack against a possible big bluff (without the nuts or close) -- which makes it a really good move. (I do make notes on the players who will overbet/bluff -- but they don't seem to play long. I dunno if it's because they won enough or they lost enough, though.)

You think he flats AA preflop OOP against an UTG raise?

He might flat AA on the button but I highly doubt AA is in his flatting range OOP against an UTG open

AK flat? -no

AQ? maybe

AJs yes but he wouldnt CR that flop.. too worried about being shoved on by AK and folding out all hands he beats.

I agree with your analysis fwiw Stu. I hate that I ch/raised the flop. It pretty much turned my hand into a couple of set combos or heart draws AND it made the pot too big for a pot sized river bet. I think looking back on it, if I did ch/raise the flop, I need to shove the turn. Honestly he probably folds KK there to a turn shove. Stupid 1/2 pot turn bet.

Also I'm not trying to say the hands I posted were in any way "good" bluffs, just a couple of random river shoves with air actually. I filtered for river All-ins with no pair to find these hands.

Like you said, whether or not they are good or bad is incidental.

We dont incorporate bluffing opportunities enough into hand analysis, so its certainly a good thread.

One thing I would say is that if you intend to call wider OOP, you need to lead more rather than follow a c/c line. A C/R line is also good but like you say it inflates the pot and I think if you overuse C/R lines people peg you as a manic and decide that any decent pair is ahead of your overall range and thus make more crying calls. If you held a set on that board you wouldn't be worried about the straight because low cards dont really connect with an UTG range.

By leading more you rep things like AJ/AT its an OK hand and it beats KK. You dont want to get all the money in but you think your hand may be best.

There is a limit to how often you can rep a narrow range before your image is destroyed.

cash game OMAHA hands apply here WV???.. and the KJ bluff should have worked (shove on turn would have been better like you and stu said)but if and only if any EEDIOTS out there would fold KK with an A on board..lol

Trust me my image was destroyed ages ago.

Although it does help me get some value from my strong and medium strength hands. If I could just rein in the crazyness a little, I might be able to make some money at this game.

Yeah Omaha is fine.

This is why I semi bluff more than outright bluff.

1. I can pick up equity

2. I can rep a wider range because a second flush card on the turn could hit me.

3. It stops me being too crazy because a lot of the time I dont connect with the board enough to bet it but I still connect often enough to not be playing fit or fold.

Apparently villain does not have a fold button. Strange considering he's a 22/18 reg.

Full Tilt Poker $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

SB: $217.05
BB: $118.50
UTG: $109.10
Hero (CO): $100.00
BTN: $100.00

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is CO with 7 ♥ 9 ♥
UTG raises to $3, Hero calls $3, 3 folds

Flop: ($7.50) 3 ♣ 8 ♦ 4 ♥ (2 players)
UTG bets $5, Hero raises to $13, UTG calls $8

Turn: ($33.50) 6 ♦ (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $22, UTG calls $22

River: ($77.50) K ♠ (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $62 all in, UTG calls $62

Final Pot: $201.50
UTG shows 4 ♠ 5 ♠ (a pair of Fours)
Hero shows 7 ♥ 9 ♥ (King Nine high)
UTG wins $198.50
(Rake: $3.00)

I agree it makes a lot more sense (and cents) to bluff with equity. How often do you follow through with the big river bet when you miss though?

There are very few aces or sets and a lot of flush draws when you raise this flop vs an UTG raiser. When there are a lot of draws and few monsters in your range, people do make hero calls.

Sorry I missed this earlier.

No. 100bb or greater cash game and you're eligible. Although I do hope people won't be out there bluff shoving rivers at 2nl just to try for the $15, but whatever.

@Belgo: Obvious misclick river call imo. Either that or superuser!

or dwan...saw him make a hero call with 4th pair on the board last week on PAD...eli just shook his head and moved on..

I'm not sure how often.

Maybe half the time.

For me to bluff the river I have to feel that there are a few decent medium hands I can rep and that he can feel it hits me enough that he could also throw away a few decent medium hands himself.

Personally I dont credit alot of villians as being "logical" enough to fold often enough to even try.

My bluffs look a lot like the one just posted by belgio.

Basically there tons of turn cards that give him equity.

He has position.

He sees the guy check call the turn and then check the river.

The king isnt so much a scare card as the fact that belgio bets 3 times. But the board dosnt have much the villian can make a crying call with.. well apart from the 4!

The river bet is 3/4 pot ish and so you aren't risking way too much money. A 3/4 pot bet needs to succeed 42% of the time to show a profit.

So I dont bluff all the time and when I do I think they work way more than 1/2 the time so I'm pretty sure it shows a decent profit.

It's the simplest ones that are my favourites:

View hand 835266
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

UTG: $25.00
MP: $38.26
CO: $64.51
BTN: $33.54
Hero (SB): $26.62
BB: $32.38

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with A ♠ Q ♥
2 folds, CO raises to $0.75, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.75, 1 fold, CO calls $2

Flop: ($5.75) 7 ♠ 9 ♦ 4 ♦ (2 players)
Hero bets $3, CO calls $3

Turn: ($11.75) K ♥ (2 players)
Hero bets $6, CO folds

Simple double barrel. Villain is a regular stealer from CO so AQo is 3bet for value, seeing as he likes to peel 3bets and I've got a nice tight image.

He had a 0% fold to c-bet so decided as soon as I saw flop to double barrel fairy small, and I think the K hits the range villain puts us on pretty hard The fairly small turn bet allows us to b/f the turn if he has been setmining / has hit and stack sizes mean that I've still got a pot sized jam for any river to really put pressure on hands like TT/JJ/missed draws with mid pairs


Do semi-bluffs count? This one worked out quite nicely:

Poker Stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 835270
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Hero (UTG): $16.64
MP: $17.95
CO: $9.11
BTN: $10.00
SB: $23.99
BB: $20.79

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is UTG with 9 ♠ 8 ♠
Hero raises to $0.20, 3 folds, SB raises to $0.60, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1, SB calls $0.40

Flop: ($2.10) Q ♥ 4 ♠ K ♥ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.50, SB calls $1.50

Turn: ($5.10) 2 ♠ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3, SB calls $3

River: ($11.10) Q ♠ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $11.14 all in, SB calls $11.14

Final Pot: $33.38
Hero shows 9 ♠ 8 ♠ (a flush, Queen high)
SB shows A ♦ K ♣ (two pair, Kings and Queens)
Hero wins $31.74
(Rake: $1.64)



The UTG min raise was a misclick and as I figured we had a fair bit of equity, especially IP, decided to continue with the spazzy line by min 4 raising (added benefit of giving me a fishy table image as I had just sat down).

Flop gives a bunch of back doors but it's also a nice board to c-bet IMO because he's going to have a lot of AQ/AJ/KJ (villain has a 10% 3-bet over 114 hands) and because he's going to find it very hard to put us on a hand which doesn't have high cards in it I think.

Pick up plenty of equity on the turn so I carry on with a small bet, knowing that I've got a pot size bet on the river if he flats. When he calls flop I put him on hands like AQ/AK/KQ/JJ (given the small bet and stack sizes meaning he might peel)/KQ/QJ/KJ/a flush draw and I figure I'm about a 3:1 dog, so if I hit the flush on the river I've got $6 invested to win all $15 and I've got a lot of fold equity so I run with it

I've got mixed reactions to the river card; obviously I'm dead to KQ now but at the same time we get so much value from any Q and possibly a K too that I think jamming our PSB is the best way. He snapped off with AKo (despite now beating nothing that I'm repping)

Well your FD is backdoor so he can put you on a missed heart draw, I guess. Should be a really small part of your range given the way the hand played out but who knows if he's even thinking beyond "I has topest pair. Must cawl.".

Probably not.

He's got a bluffcatcher and probably fistpump called

A pot sized 3rd barrel in a hand that was 4bet preflop.

That's just how I roll

More posts please.

Is this the type of bluff your talking about?

Or are you wanting more 2 and three barrel stuff?

I have recently added this to my moves: Check the flop and bluff the turn. Although I did turn both a flush and gut-shot draws.

Full Tilt - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

UTG: $5.10
MP: $11.68
CO: $7.30
Hero (BTN): $10.11
SB: $10.00
BB: $16.84

SB posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has A♠ 7♠

UTG calls $0.10, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.45, fold, fold, UTG calls $0.35

Flop: ($1.05, 2 players) 2♦ 9♣ 6♠
UTG checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($1.05, 2 players) 5♠
UTG checks, Hero bets $1.05, fold

Hero wins $0.98

Here is another one where I did the same thing, but at full ring instead of 6-max:
Full Tilt - $0.10 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

MP: $3.50
MP+1: $4.18
LP: $4.91
CO: $4.81
Hero (BTN): $10.23
SB: $6.70
BB: $15.18
UTG: $13.43
UTG+1: $10.00

SB posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has J♠ K♦

fold, fold, fold, MP+1 calls $0.10, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.45, fold, fold, MP+1 calls $0.35

Flop: ($1.05, 2 players) T♦ 2♥ 8♥
MP+1 checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($1.05, 2 players) T♣
MP+1 checks, Hero bets $0.70, fold

Hero wins $0.98

Here is a 3 barrel bluf I did wiht only Ace high: Whats with the $0.25 Villon bet on the river?

Bodog - $0.25 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

UTG+1: $23.95
MP: $15.65
MP+1: $24.50
CO: $17.70
Hero (BTN): $28.20
SB: $4.75
BB: $27.55
UTG: $24.75

SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.35) Hero has 8♣ A♣

fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, fold, MP+1 calls $0.25, fold, Hero raises to $1.20, fold, fold, UTG+1 calls $0.95, fold

Flop: ($3.00, 2 players) J♣ T♦ 6♠
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $1.75, UTG+1 calls $1.75

Turn: ($6.50, 2 players) 4♠
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $4.00, UTG+1 calls $4.00

River: ($14.50, 2 players) J♥
UTG+1 bets $0.25, Hero raises to $10.00, fold

Hero wins $14.25

I would prefer you talk about the hand a bit as well. What type of villain, what range you think he has, what he folds that beats you, etc. I'm really looking to spur discussion because like I said it's a (big?) part of the game that seemingly never gets discussed.

oh this is going to be fun

*opens HEM up*