What range of hands to call shortstacks when you have a really big stack?

With a really big stack compared to the rest of people, maybe 5-10 times their stack, what do I call with to knock some short stacks out? At some point in the tournament I had alot of chips, for about 1/9 or 1/10 of my chips, would I call a SS push with my A2s for example? the short stack pushed quite late. But I thought the kicker is so low, should i worry about doubling him up, or should I have called to knock him out (assuming he didnt have Ax or a pair...)

if I have a large stack of chips I try to call/ steal every hand and blind possible with any kind big pockers or small pockets or connectors of any kind you have to try to use ur stack to your advantage and yes even bully alot in that kinhd of a position

any A/K/Q, suited connectors and all pairs is pretty much my range to call any SS shove. If it's a really short stack then I'll call with anything

If a shorty has a couple of blinds left then it could be correct to call with any Ace big king or pair. If he has around 6-10 blinds you probably need a big ace or medium pair. Try not to call with small pairs, they are likely to have 66+.

Big stacks are for bullying medium stack 10-20 BB's. This means stealing blinds and re-stealing etc. It isn't your responsibility to knock out shortstacks so just play your game and call them when you beleive you could be ahead.

sorry, but if he only has a couple of blinds left then Im calling with absolutely everything. Every KO is a step up the cash ladder.

I agree completely. And I agree because I have sometimes become KO-crazy with my big stack and turned it into a small stack and a bust when I had been in great position for making it to FT (or first place if it was a SNG.).

It does absolutely nothing for increasing your chances to call a SS shove with a poor hand. Poor hands=unlikely to win. Mostly, you will just double up the shorties, and cut your own lead. Yeah, you will KO a SS sometimes, but there is no need for you in particular to call those shoves with garbage. Let it be. Patience is key to this as well.

In fact, with a big big stack, I feel my responsibility is to keep it a big stack. I let others battle it out. I pop into a hand only when I have very good cards and am likely to win -- which increases my lead at the same time as it may KO someone else.

That said, when I am a short stack and a big stack calls me with garbage and wins, it's OK. I wanted him to call me with garbage because it increased my chance of winning the hand. I didn't but I appreciate him giving me the best chance to double up.

I think it is dependent on several factors.

Did the small stack become a small stack because he took a bad beat with a monster preflop hand. If it is the very next hand and he shoves your range for calling him is likely going to be quite wide considering the fact he is likely on tilt.

However, if that same stack has seen a full round of so and then decides to shove you might be facing someone who is still being selective in their choice of hands and likely has a monster again and is looking to get someone to double him up.

Even if you have him by 10x his stack you might consider folding weaker hands that you might otherwise want to call with under the previous circumstance.

You need to keep in mind that doubling up a good player with a small stack might be conterproductive and have less value than a chance at knocking him out by getting a lucky suckout.

Even cards like T8o seem to work against me when I'm a shortstack. If you think shorty gets it in with any ace or any king then, if your stack is much larger that the ss, calling with two cards above 7 should be good enough.

You could use something like pokerstove to put shorty on a range of hands and then see what you should be calling for a >40% win rate.

If your call on his all in is less then 10% of your stack, then call everytime. (Harrington's rule).

^^^^this, 100%

Tell that to me when I call with 27 off and he has KK and I double him up then the next hand I have QQ and call his all in and he should j3 off and hit 2 pair for a second double up. Had I folded the 27 off I could have avoided taking him from 1000 chips to 4000 and bring him back into the game.

Harrington is more than likely right. But, I would rather exercise at least some form of selective calling than none at all.

27 every time for me, KK is over-rated

I agree with Dog. Poker is many times a game of math, and odds say call.

It depends. Is this a tourney or a SNG.
It depends on what odds you're getting to make the call... what position you're in (are you closing out the action).. along with a bunch of other scenarios that will be specific to the exact situation.
Alot of players call really wide, while not getting odds to do so... totally unecessary.
Also, depending upon what stage of Tourney or SNG you're at.. ie. on or nearing bubble play it is sometimes better to keep the shortstack alive as it allows you even more of an oppurtunity to punish the medium-sized stacks.. & players who are playing too tight on the bubble.

It was a tournament yeah. But a freeroll, and it seems at least somebody is likely to call my push, but since the blinds are going round so fast I was wondering at least what i should push. its not near the bubble yet because top 2 prizes and there was maybe 20 or 30 ppl left.

IMHO unless there is a very good reason to call, you should be just as tight as what you would be with a bigger stack, or even tighter.

Calling a PF raise from a big stack, or an all in from a short, with 72o against villans KK you will have a ~70/30 on your hands; against a big stack you have better implied odds. On a flop of 72Q a checkraise, at least in low stakes, will result in all villans chips going in; Thus better implied odds. However your 72o against a short stack isn't getting any implied odds.

I feel like people at the table often refuse to give credibility to a shortstack, and will call ATC and bring the short stacks back into a tournament.

Just my two cents.

if a shortstaker only represents less than 10% of ur stack, it is correct mathmatically to call with any 2 cards

tournament/ sngs only

once you get into a pot with a short stack you are no longer a big stack. its all about effective stack size which is the smaller of the 2 stacks in the pot. if theres more players in there can be different effective stack sizes. one thing is its better to be pushing than calling. in the SB vs BB with effective stacks <10BBs its often correct to shove any two cards. if the pot offers you 2:1 odds you can call that allin from a SS with any two cards. but be sure you are going to be the one that ends the action. you dont want to put chips into a pot then get squeezed out of it.

harrington's rules is you have 20 times the smaller stack. which would be 5% of you stack not 10%. also he says to put the smaller stack all in not to call it. although the eg in the book he called on the big blind w/J7o or something like that. i don't agree with his rule. just because you got lots of chips no need to spew them away. if this is far from the money then you should be trying to make the most + cEV(chip expected value) possible. -EV plays = losing money.

Hey thanks for all the advice everyone.
Yeah actually, 10% of chips is quite alot, so i was wondering mostly if im seeing all the cards, what to call with. and also depending on what shortstacks do, cos some short stacks seem to wait forever for some premium hand to push and then some short stacks that look for any opportunity to push, so I think most of the time by calling, i do have some kind of edge on them, but if they double up, then im not really able to call them again when they have 2/9 of my chips :s.

no, just no

Dan Harrington usually follows the 10-1 rule.
When facing to eliminate a short stack and a call will only risk 10% or less of your chips then you can call with almost any 2 cards.

Sorry, but it's 10-1, if you own the book look it up in HOH vol.2 page 287.

yes it is 10 to 1. but he is also the one pushing not calling. big difference. also i still don't agree with it.

Take a look on page 288, he had almost 1,000,000 in chips where he called an 80,000 all-in bet with a weak jack.

I think there's more to consider than just stack sizes.

Are you right on the bubble or far from it?

What kind of player is he? Fish? Good?

What's my stack relative to the blinds, not his stack. How will losing 1 tenth my stack affect me? How much will increasing my stack by 10% help me?

Were you in the blinds? (There's a certain merit to the argument defending your blinds with A2 will slow down stealers.)

What position is he pushing from?

I can think of many scenarios where calling here with almost any two is right. I can also imagine as many where it's just flat out wrong.

use the bigstack to push around....such as raising with Ax or whatever rather than calling with these hands.....i would only call someone allin if i knew i had them beat....use the power to make them make decisions that are uncomfortable rather than calling when they want u to

Depends a little on reads and exactly how short a stack we're talking about. But in general it'd be any ace / king / queen or pair and maybe suited connectors / gappers.

Something one needs to consider though is... when we're raising w junk (A-rag) w a big stack, we need to look at the stack sizes of opponents yet to act... as we will often be pricing ourselves in for the call if there are shortstacks involved.

Alot of the replies above seem to fall into the category of .. 'wanting to put the answer in a box'.. all nice & neat.. black & white. I prefer Brann's reply as the situation is always that.. 'the situation'.. no two are quite the same.
As far as going with Harrington's theory of saying.. if you have 10to1 in chips over the shortstack.. the call is correct if you're closing out the action. I disagree with this. I think it's just a genearlized statement. Harrington is not God of MTT play.. his books were a great introduction to Tournament play and are a good foundation for players to work from.. but they are from the 'the shite' these days on MTT play... ."Beyond Harrinton" stuff has been out & in the works and on the tables for years now. First off.. more importantly to consider over whether or not you have SS outchipped 10to1 is.. what odds the pot is giving you... the benefit of decreasing or increasing your stack by the 10%,... how it will affect the play on the table once the SS is out (sometimes keeping him in can be far more beneficial,.. ie. giving you oppurtunities to squeeze, etc.,.. and if it's on or near bubble play, often the best thing to do is to keep the SS in (so many players feel it is their duty to call in an effort to KO the SS.... this is wrong imo.. for many reasons).

Rarely is anything every black & white on the poker tables. To give a decent answer as to whether or not it would be considered 'correct' to call a SS shove, one would need more details of the actual situation. Sure.. sometimes it is black & white.... but many times it isn't. Too hard to make a generalized statement for an answer to OP's question here.

Note about players who are shoving <10bb's.. saying that they've often given up??? Umm... yah.. 'wrong' imo.. by a longshot.

on the page before that he talks about the being the one going allin not calling. in the 2 examples i agree with each play(but not for the reasons given) going allin in the first one eg 5 because the BB has less than 10BB's this is clearly a shove any two cards spot. How big or small my stack is of little importance to me it relalive stack sizes that matter. I'd shove into the big stack if i were the small stack as well. on the eg on page 288 I totally agree with the call here. He is getting probably over 2 to 1 on his call clearly a call any two spot. and again stack sizes have little to do with it. it has more to do with the size relative to the big blinds and "M". if this were low blinds and larger "m" it would be a clear fold to an allin. say the blinds were 50/100 no antees. and the guy shoves 80k(800BB) into $150 pot. that would be a stupid call even if you had 10x or even 50x his stack.

+1

this is so true. poker to me is 2 things 1st guessing an opponants possible range of hands and guessing their likely actions. and 2nd making the most +EV choice based on this guesses. and all of these things brann talks about should come into play.