Weekly Discussions Topic: 3betting

Excuse the introductory ramblings. You’re not missing anything if you skip them:
I said I’d write something for the cash game weekly discussion thingy and didn’t. I’m lazy, my bad. Truthfully I’ve got tons of stuff on right now and figured that thread (whilst a great idea that would be in everyone’s best interest to keep going) is going to have difficulty in lasting because the list of guys willing to post it is about... hmmm, less than five? I think that’s fair. Anyway, we should all contribute to this sort of a thing because discussion is definitely very +EV, offering information to others is great because 1) Nothing you know is that valuable. There are like 2-3 people here who know anything poker related that’s maybe worth keeping quiet about. 2) Talking about ideas helps to determine where you can improve, and occasionally someone else will come along with something you don’t know.
Now, here’s my contribution to the weekly discussion topics, it’s intentionally non-informative to show that you don’t need to know anything to do it, you’ve just got to start a discussion and nothing more so put your hand up for the next one and keep this thing going.

/Ramblings


Ok, let’s talk 3betting pre-flop.

IP, OOP, blind defence and sizing.

What is a 3bet?

It’s the 3rd bet. The guy in the big blind posts the BB (one bet), someone raises (second bet) and someone re-raises (third bet=3bet).



Key notes on 3betting:
Most opponents will fold in the ballpark of 70% of the time to 3bets, this means that they are frequently immediately profitable (meaning you can often do it with any two cards).
Your raise sizing determines how often you need your opponent to fold for it to be profitable.
Most microstakes 3betting ranges are very strong, purely for value (aside from extreme fish).
When you 3bet a hand that has value when played to the river but can’t stack pre-flop (example: TT is very capable of profitably seeing a lot of showdowns but can almost never call a 4bet shove pre-flop) then you waste its value. For this reason 3betting nuts and junk and just calling with medium strength hands is usually better.
3bet pots play dramatically different post-flop, stacks will go in sooner and you SHOULD stack light. That fish that value towned himself with TPTK against your awesomely slow played nuts that one time, whether he knew it or not he was correct and if you wouldn’t do the same in his shoes, you’re leaking chips, badly.


Ok, now I’m going to stop making sense and let you guys do the logical parts, here’s a questionnaire, all questions assume opponents are unknowns:
In Position
Q1: What ratio of value hands and bluff hands do you have in your 3bet range on a new table, when in position? Why?
- If you don’t know this, figuring it out will increase your winrate.

Q2: What are the advantages to 3betting compared to calling? What % of hands would you call a MP open raise with when on the BTN?

Q3: Keeping your answer to the first question in mind, what 3bet sizing is optimal for you? Why?

Out of Position

Q1: What range is more profitable to just call than to 3bet vs a MP open raise?
- Remember, players are unknowns. You can say how you’d respond to standard TAGs, LAGs, fish, whatever, just don’t cop out with “I need reads”, either assume it’s your first hand, or make some common reads up.

Q2: When you 3bet OOP (vs someone who’s not in a steal position), 100bb deep, are you bluffing with your stack often post-flop?

Q3: What sizing is optimal for your 3bets when OOP?
- Tip: Think about how much fold equity you need to make it profitable with your range and what SPR your range is going to play best with post-flop.

Blind Defence
- This is similar to just OOP but we’re assuming villain is raising from a steal position and our read is that they’re probably stealing wide.

Q1: What range should you be calling with, and what range should you be 3betting with?

Q2: What 3bet sizing should you be using and how will it affect play post-flop?

Sorry if I butchered this, or the questions are bad for whatever reason, I haven’t proof read it, that’s my excuse and I’m sticking to it.
The point I’m trying to make about 3betting: Nothing. I just want people to think about it and post their thoughts. This is a discussion, not an instruction.

Thanks to pokerkid and brank for kicking things off!

Wanted to suggest this link as background for this topic:

Move Beyond the Hand Chart: 3-bets & 4-bets preflop in No Limit Hold'em Cash Games

Also wanted to throw into the discussion mix how being 200bb's deep effective stacks affects your answers to pokerkid's q's.

AAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!! This is rad! I have been thinking lots about 3 and 4bets recently. I was thinking about taking tomorrow night for study and now I have a great assignment. Totally psyched.
Its late and I NEED to get to bed so, alas, I'll get to this manana.

I'm inclined to 3bet with AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, and AK in position at a new table. I like to wait until I have a feel for the table before 3bet bluffing with air. I usually play lower stakes and I have to assume that if there is a 4bet, then if I don't have AA or KK I have to fold. With AA or KK, I am likely to shove to a 4bet in this situation.
Advantages of 3betting compared to calling:

1. A 3bet will often cause a bluff to fold which is much better than just stealing the blinds.
2. It pressures your opponent to make a decision
3. It is a way of gaining information... if the opponent calls and then checks to you on the next street, you know you can probably bet and take a nice pot.

As for the percentage of hands I call an open raise with on the button, mostly AQish hands and Pocket pairs smaller than tens trying for a set or a low, nonconnected, rainbow flop where I can bet and take the pot when the opponent shows weakness (I get to act last, so I have a huge advantage here). If it is a new table and I don't have any info on the opponent, I will likely fold to a reasonable bet. If I feel like it is a weak bet, I may reraise a c-bet if the board is crap. If I get called, I will probably cease and desist!

I generally like to 3bet around 3x the original raise. I don't want to give the original raiser a good price to call with whatever cards he holds. This narrows his calling range considerably which gives me another opportunity to figure out what he may be holding.[/quote]

With an unknown raiser, I'm likely calling with anything worse than QQ

I'm not usually 3betting OOP, but if I do, I have AA or KK unless I have good info on the raiser and know he's a stealing machine

My rare OOP 3bet is usually an indication that I have a very strong hand and you should fold to it! Having said this, my optimal 3bet size in this spot is about 3x the original raise. I will raise a bit more if there are callers before me. Again, I don't want to price the 3bettor or the caller in.

Quote:

Blind Defence

I raised from the button or the CO, I may 3bet to resteal.. especially if there are a couple of limpers before the raise. This increases the amount of the pot making a steal more valuable.

In most cases as I stated before, I like to 3bet about 3x the original raise + about 1x for each caller after the raise. This makes it pretty expensive to call.

So many fun questions - rather than trying to reply to all, I'll just start w why 3bet rather than call.

1. For value. When we're ahead of Villain's range, the 3bet is a value raise. Note that this is relative, not static - a given hand will be ahead of some Villains' opening ranges from a specific position, and will be behind other Villains' ranges from the same position. So we may be able to 3bet 99 for value against one Villain's MP range but not another's (that's not to say that it's necessarily optimal to do this, just that you could 3bet for value against a 20% opening range for example).

2. To setup favorable situations postflop. The lower the SPR, the more we can profitably stack off postflop on a favorable flop. Note also that many players who are not comfortable playing 3bet pots will play incorrectly postflop - calling 3bets oop, for example, can cause some pretty bad mistakes postflop.

3. As a bluff or as a squeeze, where we expect to be able to take the pot down pf or on the flop frequently enough. If someone folds to 3bets a ton, you can open up your 3betting range profitably. If a player opens and is called by a second player and we squeeze, the opener is going to have a tough time calling our 3bet not knowing what the caller is going to do behind him, and the caller is usually weaker than the opener - again, we can open our 3betting range profitably if we're against the correct Villain types.

4. To isolate a specific player. We're happy to play a pot w this player, but don't want to end up multiway.

This isn't to say that 3betting is always superior to calling, just a list of reasons why we might 3bet rather than call. For example, if 3betting causes Villain to fold when we'd really like to be able to extract more value postflop, calling becomes a superior line in many cases.

That's off the top of my head, probably missed one or two reasons...

I'm beginning my 3/4 bet learning lately, as is Wetyeti. I also am approaching this from a tourney POV, as my ring game still sucks.

Keeping in mind a recent study and related post about something like 80-90% of hands are won without a showdown, meaning it is betting skill that does the trick, AND my observations during CC buy-in games where I am assuming all the players have a clue, I find (using the simple 'Last Hand" capability at each site) that the 80-90% figure is reasonable. I don't need a tracker to use that tool, and it really is easier anyway.

I had stated somewhere that I was not familiar with the whole 3/4 bet thing in tourney play, which is my forte, and was roundly razzed because others use it and see it used frequently. So obviously I need to understand its use both against me, and by me. Incidentally I have recently been 3 betting both for value and bluff, and found out some interesting things.

So let me take a crack at your questions;

In Position
Q1: What ratio of value hands and bluff hands do you have in your 3bet range on a new table, when in position? Why?

On a brand new table I will still never bluff the first orbit. I don't want to play any hand the first orbit. I want some notion of who I'm playing against. So I'm only good with monsters or monstrous opportunities. You guys can take advantage of that Fact (as of this posting) to swipe my blinds during that first orbit. But be aware that I'll be a sneaky bastard expecting you to do just that.

After the first orbit things change. Upper SC's in position, and any PP's anywhere are candidates after that. Occasionally pretty SC's OOP.

WHY???? Cause I want your chips....duh! Really, I know how I react to 3/4 betting, and don't consider myself all that unique. I know I can lay any hand down post flop depending on texture and can lay down any PP's up to QQ preflop, so I need to be able to do unto others what they would do unto me. I remember a post where Aliengenius quotes someone saying 'Steal and be stolen from".

Q2: What are the advantages to 3betting compared to calling? What % of hands would you call a MP open raise with when on the BTN?

I adhere, for the most part, to the GAP concept. Meaning I want a better hand than the range I put the 2 better on. Especially at a new table, where I have no reads other than the stack size of villain. If his stack size is larger than the max buy-in, I have 3 options to think;

1. He's been sitting here a really really long time........
2. He got lucky early...
3. He's a generic thief and is LAG by nature.

As you can imagine I don't want to rely on any of those reads early on. I will always prefer some evidence before I go risking my stack with incomplete info that could be more complete simply by waiting a few more orbits.
Oddly the BTN presents unique opportunities where I often will speculate where even in the cutoff I won't. So I suppose the top 20, maybe 25% of hands fill the flat call scenario.

Q3: Keeping your answer to the first question in mind, what 3bet sizing is optimal for you? Why?

For me, at this point, this is still formulaic. 2-3 x the last raise.

Out of Position
Q1: What range is more profitable to just call than to 3bet vs a MP open raise?

-Sooted broadway and monster pairs . These hands can often stand on their own without help. Lesser pairs, and sc, or even just connectors don't want action, so they will need to be played agro, or folded up front.

Q2: When you 3bet OOP (vs someone who’s not in a steal position), 100bb deep, are you bluffing with your stack often post-flop?

Sure don't want to, but this IS a read dependent move.

Q3: What sizing is optimal for your 3bets when OOP?

Pot size min. I need villain to believe I have nothing less than AA, and am willing to shove.

Blind Defense
I have not been a big defender ever until the stakes in my tourneys get very large. So one of the things I think, in general, about defending is stack sizes. This is an area I need to improve on.

Q1: What range should you be calling with, and what range should you be 3betting with?

I will want almost any PP, or sooted Broadway and I have seldom 3 bet here without something definitely serious.

Q2: What 3bet sizing should you be using and how will it affect play post-flop?In Position?

IP, I think a simple double the 2 bet will suffice if isolated. But this doesn't always work for me so I may need to adjust according to what has been working.

Q1: What ratio of value hands and bluff hands do you have in your 3bet range on a new table, when in position? Why?

I have always preferred value to bluffs, and always thought I was fairly decent at picking off bluffs. So my ratio would probably be in the 90% value-10% bluff range. +/- 10%.

WHY? Cuz in the past I've been a whimp........

It must be stated I avoid ring games because I have a negative win rate at ring, meaning I suck. I know this, but have experienced enough winning sessions, where I won more per minute than my typical tourney win rate, that I need to find out WHY i suck at ring, and what I can do to improve that situation.....

For an OOP 3 bet this means we are limp raising, no? Otherwise it would mean that we're in the blinds right?

A couple of random observations, take them for whatever they're worth.

1. OOP with the bottom of your range is the last place you want to be, but maybe 3betting would make that hand easier to play by creating a lot more fold equity and less relying on winning a showdown with middle pair or tough flop and turn decisions.

2: If raising 3x, you usually need your opponent to fold about 2/3 of the time to make a profit (assuming you never win if they play back, for simplicity), since 99.999999% of TAGs and not completely brain dead LAGs and most fish even are going to fold this much or more, maybe your range should be mostly weak? At least in position.

In the above examples we're in the blinds, just in the blind defence questions we've got reason to believe we're facing a steal attempt. In the just OOP question, we're facing a MP raise that just happened to fold around to us.