Views on this one?

Early - no info - it's a folder right?
...though in practice, I think some of us would choose to call/raise at least some of the time.

If you decided not to fold here - explain why.

Would you often call/raise in a similar situation?
Would it depend and if so on what would it depend? Your mood?

I'm not asking for views on cash games, short-handed tables etc,
just on this particular situation.

PokerStars Game #17294638829: Tournament #87654283, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2008/05/08 - 19:02:07 (ET)
Table '87654283 1' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: juju1ner (1290 in chips)
Seat 2: Grob_Andre (1490 in chips)
Seat 3: DRoar8475 (1470 in chips)
Seat 4: 7letters (1960 in chips)
Seat 5: Nettech63 (1410 in chips)
Seat 6: gordy74 (1220 in chips)
Seat 7: inakika (1060 in chips)
Seat 8: Dolfan1213 (2760 in chips)
Seat 9: aejele (840 in chips)
gordy74: posts small blind 10
inakika: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 7letters [ ]
Dolfan1213: folds
aejele: calls 20
juju1ner: calls 20
Grob_Andre: folds
DRoar8475: folds
7letters: raises 80 to 100
Nettech63: folds
gordy74: calls 90
inakika: raises 960 to 1060 and is all-in
aejele: folds
juju1ner: folds
7letters: folds
gordy74: folds
inakika collected 340 from pot
inakika: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 340 | Rake 0
Seat 1: juju1ner folded before Flop
Seat 2: Grob_Andre folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: DRoar8475 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: 7letters folded before Flop
Seat 5: Nettech63 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: gordy74 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: inakika (big blind) collected (340)
Seat 8: Dolfan1213 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: aejele folded before Flop
__________________

I call this 100% of the time without reads. This early in a SnG there are so many idiots you'll be up against a weaker ace enough to make the call very profitable IMO.

I'll go along with that WVHillBilly.

I asked this question elsewhere recently and got differing views - can't say I thought either view was especially wrong.

The flip side of the argument was that it's an instant fold and that we should use our skill to win this game rather than rely on luck so early in the game.

It's a 27 seat sng..I don't know whether the buyin should be a consideration or not.

Any more views?

Remember he could have Ax and be the one who needs to get lucky. Unless he has AA/KK you'll win half of the time he has a pair. I've never played beyond $20 SnGs but I wouldn't fold this at any level I've ever played.

snapcall/fistpump/ONE TIME DEALER

Well said. Snapcall.

For a $5 Sit and Go....I'd call in a heartbeat. If you're risking a good portion of your bankroll on this game....throw 'em away. It sucks getting drawn on by a 3 6 off suit and end up broke.

Early no reads. Normally this is a snapcall, but if you are near you BR fine tuning point, a laydown here is not out of the question.

I am pretty much on the same side as everyone else and I am really tight to start a game (forget I said this if you are playing against me). However, I would shove this in an instant. Maybe he has AA or KK but I would put him on a smaller pair or Ax where he has to improve to beat you. My only reservation is that if we lose this hand we are out before the seat gets warm, but if we're in it to win...I call.

To call or fold should be based on the structure of the tournament. I'm guessing, but given it is a 27 sng I don't see this being a long drawn out contest that gives you the luxury of folding AK. The argument that you should fold and use skill would be fine in a long drawn out marathon tournament, but in a relatively short SNG luck will inevitably play a bigger factor.

If you fold that hand in that situation, then what are you gonna call with? AA only? Because if you fold AK like this you're sure he has AA or KK, and therefore you must fold KK too because then his range is only AA, right? =)

Calling here is not luck based, you're clearly ahead of his range, which, with no reads, you have to assume consists of half the pairs and big aces. Think about it this way: if you fold this hand here, it's profitable to re-raise you everytime with any two cards, since you'll be folding everything but big pairs, which you won't get enough times to compensate...

AK is a drawing hand. Not everyone is willing to risk their seat in the tournament to outdraw someone, especially someone who is near the breaking point in their BR.

ARGH NO IT IS NOT

i would fold i never risk too many of my chips early in the tournament, unless i got the nuts.

"What am I gonna call with?" BIG diff between 'calling' and going 'all-in' preflop. I'll 'call' in most cases to a bet, but I will 'fold' to an all-in pf, unless I really don't give a cra* whether I win or lose.

Of COURSE it is 'luck based'. Any all-in call preflop is luck based. When someone posts about their AK loss to the 5,7soooooted, one of the most common replies is 'better luck next time'. As the all-in villain, you would have no idea what I folded. Maybe AA, maybe 3,8o, so it would not be 'profitable' to re-raise me every time, unless your strategy is to go all-in every hand. We're also talking about the diff between folding to an all-in pf and a call to a raise NOT involving an all-in pf.

Money does make a difference too. If it were Chris Ferguson (or any other high stakes player) playing a $5 SnG, yea, they probably would instacall. When it's MY $5, it's an instafold.

this implies that the stakes you are playing are too high for you. you should have no problems financially making +cEV plays such as getting in with AK preflop in a $5 SNG. consider re-evaluating your BRM guidelines

Really? So an A or a K will hit on EVERY hand? And when it doesn't it will ALWAYS hold up?

Sorry, but depending on the situation. I might not throw all of my chips in the pot while praying that I hit an A or a K and that the other player doesn't hit a set/straight/flush.

I agree with you on this point.

Joe Navy,

Drawing hands are not typically defined as those hands that need to pair up. Draws are usually to straights/flushes so hands like A3s or 76 are drawing hands. Drawing hands are typically played when you can get in the pot relatively cheap with multiple way action.

AK is NOT a drawing hand. AK is a hand you raise and can continue to play aggressive post flop. Even with an all under flop, you can maintain aggression and be comfortable you have overs.

Certainly AK can rarely improve to a flush or straight, but you are not typically playing AK in hopes of hitting a draw.

I know what a draw is. I apologize for the confusion, I suppose I just used the wrong word....several times.

Perhaps I should have said. Why gamble so much with a hand that MUST improve.

Before anyone gives me the argument "Play it agressively and take down the pot"

Ok....in a $5 SnG....there are bound to be garbage player who play garbage hands....we all know it.

I don't play many SnG's, but it really does not matter. Any all-in preflop is an instafold for me. Doesn't really have anything to do with BR size or BRM. The game is supposed to be No Limit Holdem, not All-In Luckem. I'm of the Sammy Farha thinking. Show me cards and I play, and not just the 2 in the hole. there's 5 more hiding out there. Too much like playing hide 'n seek for all-in pf's.

It's not for everyone, but it works for me.

IMO you gamble so much with a hand that MUST improve because of the structure of the tournament. It is not because it is a $5 game, but because it is only 27 players with blinds that probably move up relatively quick. You don't get dealt AK often enough to fold in this situation. You should gamble here. Now granted, the OP did not define the amount of time per level, so I am basing my statement on an assumption the blinds move up quick.

ild gamble an call but wouldnt be that happy about it but as has already been said idiots abound and its a fairly strong hand that can improve a lot

10 minute blinds

If it's a top heavy prize pool like first gets an entry to something I'd call, otherwise I'd fold it. The AK gets a lot of value from it's fold equity, while the guy might be pushing something like AQ or AJ giving you the best hand I'd often expect it to be something like a small pocket pair. Just not really worth the gamble this early I think.

This early in a tourney, and at this level, ppl are playing blind poker or atleast that one player was, what were the blinds 10/20, that one player risking all his chips to win so little, with AK, you really can't fold there because I mean yes it's not the best of hands, but your beating his hands I agree with Vanquish 's "Insta Call" theory and Second that motion

With no info of the oppo I think I can fold this one.

It's only 1st level of the tourney, and my AKoff is a coinflip against every pair (47% me, vs 52% oppo) I don't want to risk the tourney in this situation, it's only the beginning and I have all the time to play better situations.

47/52 IF he's got a pair (and with money in the pot you've got those odds). Better chance if he has unmatched unders. Much better if he has Ax.

If you enter a SnG or an MTT, best result obviously is to win it. Then of course it is to cash. After that, best result is to go out in round 1.

I wouldn't advocate playing like a lunatic, but you'll probably be putting your MTT / SNG on the line with a lot worse than AK at some stage an hour down the line, so why so scared now?

Easy call for me, especially if someone has taken a bit of a hit and is looking to bounce back - win and you're positioned to make a run at the win, lose and you're probably heading for an early exit, but there's always another SnG coming along in a minute.

I wonder how many of the "folders" have won an MTT or a Multi table SnG, and if so how did they do it?

I would of called that in a second pre-flop. I've seen so many people in those level tournaments push all-in with A/Q, A/J, A/10suited, ect. You probably had him crushed, and if not you were probably close to 50/50.

Like others have implied, every hand is a drawing hand. For example, with AK vs QQ, the queens are drawing to non-Aces and Kings. It's just a psychological thing when people say they'd rather have a "made hand".

But you don't have all the time to play better situations. Blinds are going up every 10 minutes. So in 1 hour you will be up 6 levels. How many hands will you be dealt in one hour, 45 if your lucky? Of those 45 hands you will be the SB and BB roughly 8 times. You really are looking at having very few opportunities. I think because of the structure of the tournament, 27 opponents with blinds moving up every 10 minutes this is an insta call situation. You have AK and are at worst a coin flip. If you plug in the potential for Ax, you are actually ahead.

If you want to get deep into this tournament you have to gamble in this situation.

Well lets not make generalisations here
This is one single hand I chose to fold in one particular situation.

If your assumptions about my play was as clear cut as you suggest then why would I bother posting this question?

I felt I should call here but in that instance I folded. I thought I'd ask for views on the hand.

As for your observations on opponent having AA/KK, I don't follow your reasoning.


I've been following the thread and thanks to all those who posted here.

man im facepalming so hard from reading this. what you're saying basically is a pure indication that you have a weak fundamental understanding of no limit hold em.

dude, you have to accept that there is an element of gambling and luck to poker that is unavoidable if you want to play well. what you're saying makes absolutely no sense and would be scoffed at by anyone who understands the game

why are you drawing your line at preflop? what about an all-in on the flop? you can still be outdrawn. in fact you'll often be a lesser % to win after the flop than you will preflop. i mean, if you're going to wait until you have the un-outdrawable nuts to get all-in, you're missing out on tons and tons of equity and you will absolutely never be a good player

and don't say you're of the sammy farha thinking, because if he saw what you were saying he'd be like "R U SERIOUS?"

don't mean to be harsh, this is just one of the most egregious things i've seen written around here in a while, especially in regard to tournaments. it's unfathomable and it's really in your best interest to either see the light and change this way of thinking or quit poker

First word that came to mind was "leak".


If you felt you should call why exactly did you fold? Why do you miss on +EV when you actually BELIEVE it's +EV? I don't get that. I get why you posted, sure, you wanted insight on what other people do in that situation and I provided my insight... all I'm trying to do is help you with your play, that's it.

Why don't you follow the reasoning behind folding only to AA/KK? Unlike an alarming number of people stated in this thread, AK is NOT a drawing hand. There's a reason it's one of the few called premium and there's a reason why it's one of the hands that yields you the most profit long term. By knowing a little bit about preflop percentages, you know you're only a really significant underdog versus those two hands. There's absolutely nothing that should make you think you're up against either of those right now. You're flipping against all pairs except those two and you smash any other big ace or king. Therefore, it's a clear call and you're missing on tons of value when you make folds like these.