rileyl
Rock Star
Silver Level
Thanks guys. Probably going to add on the the guide as I enjoyed writing it! Don't have a timeline on when to expect more but be on the look out for it! Also if anyone has any questions feel free to post them and I'll do my best to answer! Going away for the weekend though so don't expect super quick response.
Dwilius
CardsChat Regular
Silver Level
Well put together, thanks for putting the time into this.
Just so I understand the chart, is that just referring to each individual villain, as their range becomes wider based on position our air hands further outnumber our nut hands...not comparing villain types from tight to wide, because for the villains with the widest range we're dropping some air hands and adding more nut hands, right?
...or the part about dropping some air hands is just an additional re-adjustment to be made from villains that open wide/fold to 3bet to ones that open wide/call wide. Alright, I think I've talked my way through it and understand its the latter, yes?
Just so I understand the chart, is that just referring to each individual villain, as their range becomes wider based on position our air hands further outnumber our nut hands...not comparing villain types from tight to wide, because for the villains with the widest range we're dropping some air hands and adding more nut hands, right?
...or the part about dropping some air hands is just an additional re-adjustment to be made from villains that open wide/fold to 3bet to ones that open wide/call wide. Alright, I think I've talked my way through it and understand its the latter, yes?
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rileyl
Rock Star
Silver Level
I think you talked your way through but I'll just try to clear it up.
Ok so for a normal everyday villain, just your standard reg, as their range becomes wider (they are opening more hands) we want to increase the number of hands we 3-Bet as air (our air : nut ratio increase). This is all the graph refers to.
As you said dropping air hands and widening our value range is an adjustment to be made for villains who lost there fold button. I think you get my point but just to be sure:
So say a 20/11 who folds to 3-Bets only 40% of the time raises on the CO. We are on the BTN. We know his range is really wide so normally we would be 3-Betting alot of suited connector, suited gapper type hands as well as our standard nut hands. But because he rarely folds to 3-Bets we drop out most of the suited connector type hands and start 3-Betting more hands like AQ, JJ, etc.
Hope that clears it up!
Ok so for a normal everyday villain, just your standard reg, as their range becomes wider (they are opening more hands) we want to increase the number of hands we 3-Bet as air (our air : nut ratio increase). This is all the graph refers to.
As you said dropping air hands and widening our value range is an adjustment to be made for villains who lost there fold button. I think you get my point but just to be sure:
So say a 20/11 who folds to 3-Bets only 40% of the time raises on the CO. We are on the BTN. We know his range is really wide so normally we would be 3-Betting alot of suited connector, suited gapper type hands as well as our standard nut hands. But because he rarely folds to 3-Bets we drop out most of the suited connector type hands and start 3-Betting more hands like AQ, JJ, etc.
Hope that clears it up!
F
fighter
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Criticisms
Your Kx example is reasonably bad. I agree with the point you are making about domination but it is the exact same as if you flopped a pair of 8's with 86 on K85 board. Beting the flop is not as good as checking and bluff catching 2 streets/delayed cbeting.
45 does not have enough high card value to be in your UTG+1 range. around 67 is the tweener spot.
You really shouldn't be 3 betting QJs in CO against an UTG+1 raiser. It plays too well in single raised pots and is dominated too often by his calling range. This is not a hand you 3bet when you have a polarized range.
Using someone who folds 80% of hands to a 3bet in an example is silly since it becomes instantly profitable to 3bet ATC against that fold percentage.
In example 3, you say "both have reasonable fold to 3bets " but don't mention what a reasonable fold to 3bet is.
In an instructional book, don't use filler words like "probably". eg "I probably make it 18-20bb". If you don't take an action 100% of the time and have to use the word probably, explain why.
example 4. "reacts in "standard" fashion" what is standard? Same sort of problem with that word as probably.
Your Kx example is reasonably bad. I agree with the point you are making about domination but it is the exact same as if you flopped a pair of 8's with 86 on K85 board. Beting the flop is not as good as checking and bluff catching 2 streets/delayed cbeting.
45 does not have enough high card value to be in your UTG+1 range. around 67 is the tweener spot.
You really shouldn't be 3 betting QJs in CO against an UTG+1 raiser. It plays too well in single raised pots and is dominated too often by his calling range. This is not a hand you 3bet when you have a polarized range.
Using someone who folds 80% of hands to a 3bet in an example is silly since it becomes instantly profitable to 3bet ATC against that fold percentage.
In example 3, you say "both have reasonable fold to 3bets " but don't mention what a reasonable fold to 3bet is.
In an instructional book, don't use filler words like "probably". eg "I probably make it 18-20bb". If you don't take an action 100% of the time and have to use the word probably, explain why.
example 4. "reacts in "standard" fashion" what is standard? Same sort of problem with that word as probably.
rileyl
Rock Star
Silver Level
You are missing the point...the point of the example was to illustrate the problems that arise when we play hands like Kxo and why it is better to play hands like 86s etc. Even though you are right about checking back the flop, it is completely irrelevant because I wasn't trying to decide whether or not we should C-Bet TPWK. Your point actually helps show why we should eliminate these hands from our range: Even when we hit the flop great for our hand, we are still forced to play passively.
Meh. As I said in the article these ranges are just GUIDELINES. What hands you choose depends on your ability post-flop. FWIW, I show a profit with 54s in that position.
I'm obviously not 3-Betting it every time, and it probably is one of the hands I add in last only when I reach I really big air : nut ratio. Obviously I would prefer to be 3-Betting Axs or 87s but I'll still 3-Bet QJs sometimes mostly depending on villain's post-flop tendencies. (likelyhood of paying off big etc.) The point is against a good villain with a wider range, we are not likely to get paid that big even when we flop a good hand so taking it down pre-flop isn't really that bad of thing.
Again you are arguing such minor details and missing the big picture. I really wasn't concerned with exact numbers. I could make that number 72% and still wouldn't change the hand.
You are a real numbers fanatic aren't you lol! If you must have numbers say >70% or so.
I use probably because maybe sometimes I make the raise slightly bigger or smaller or whatever. I would be lying if I said I did it always. Again there are often too many factors to discuss for each decision...but the whole point of this guide was to get people thinking logically about the game. That means drawing there own conclusions in certain areas.
With the whole standard thing...play a bunch of hands and you'll quickly realize what standard is.
Thanks for reading!
ChuckTs
Legend
Silver Level
Good stuff Riley.
The hand selection, specifically opening ranges and 3bet ranges, are definitely debatable, but don't make too much of a difference imo.
Flatting something like JTs vs 3betting it can vary completely depending on villain, your postflop edge, stack sizes, squeezers behind etc.
I think fighter's being a bit of a stickler in the way that he thinks riley's assuming the reader will know a bit too much about 'standard' play, which could be true. Though, imo this isn't a guide for a 5nl player (who needs words like 'standard' and 'reasonable' explained and quantified), it's more of a guide for decent 25nl players looking to think properly about the game and improve their winrate.
The preflop opening standards are probably too loose for someone who needs a guide on what hands to open, I agree. I probably open wider than the guide suggests, but I play higher and have more experience. For someone taking shots at 50nl it might be better to stay a bit tighter.
I thought the rest of the guide was great and if it means anything to anyone at the micros, I highly suggest taking heed of the content.
The hand selection, specifically opening ranges and 3bet ranges, are definitely debatable, but don't make too much of a difference imo.
Flatting something like JTs vs 3betting it can vary completely depending on villain, your postflop edge, stack sizes, squeezers behind etc.
I think fighter's being a bit of a stickler in the way that he thinks riley's assuming the reader will know a bit too much about 'standard' play, which could be true. Though, imo this isn't a guide for a 5nl player (who needs words like 'standard' and 'reasonable' explained and quantified), it's more of a guide for decent 25nl players looking to think properly about the game and improve their winrate.
The preflop opening standards are probably too loose for someone who needs a guide on what hands to open, I agree. I probably open wider than the guide suggests, but I play higher and have more experience. For someone taking shots at 50nl it might be better to stay a bit tighter.
I thought the rest of the guide was great and if it means anything to anyone at the micros, I highly suggest taking heed of the content.
rileyl
Rock Star
Silver Level
Definitely debatable but I think this is a never ending debate. There are so many variables including like you said ability, experience, opponents, stack sizes that it is impossible to take them all into account when putting together something like this imo. Basically if people use these ranges as a guideline and understand the reasoning as to why I pick these ranges, they should be able to make whatever adjustments they need.
+1. This guide is really intended for the 25NL player trying to improve and take shots at 50NL.
Yes staying a bit tighter would not hurt you that's for sure! What's more important is that people realize that you want to pick hands that play well post-flop. You can't think of hand strength in terms of absolute value before the flop as most of the money won is won after the flop.
Thanks! It means alot coming from a player like you who's game I respect a great deal!
rileyl
Rock Star
Silver Level
Lol was wondering how long it would take for someone to notice!
Ya I know I forgot the FR adjustments. Just slipped my mind and I'm sorry FR grinders! Next update of it (which will include more post-flop play) I will try to remember to add some FR adjustments to the ranges. Basically, and this is kind of an oversimplification, every thing is the same besides the first 3 positions after the blinds. In these 3 positions, play very tight and generally assume that other people are playing very tight and you should be ok.
I know that's not anything you haven't heard before and a dramatic oversimplification but for now I hope it's ok!
WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
I was actually hoping you were going to get a bit more creative than the usual "it's 6-max + 3 positions" because I don't think that's correct. I think opening hands like suited Aces (fine UTG at 6-max) from MP1 at FR is asking for lots of problems.
I look forward to reading the next installment.
rileyl
Rock Star
Silver Level
Short answer.....Yes!
Again this is something that depends on your comfort zone, post-flop skills etc. but Axs has tons of value post-flop and I definitely think should be included in our UTG range.
rileyl
Rock Star
Silver Level
NIT ALERT!!!
FWIW I'm pretty sure it's profitable for me and heard from much better players that open these hands. I'm talking 6-Max in case you are confused.
rileyl
Rock Star
Silver Level
Ya, well that makes much more sense now. Obviously FR UTG is like WAYYYYY different than 6-Max UTG.