Tournaments and sit n' go's online- Fustrated...

Ive only ever played poker online, and I generally just play in the sit and go's and the larger tournaments. Im constantly loosing. Im just not profiting (in my fake chips) when I play.

What is fustrating is that about 90% of the time I am knocked out, I have put my chips into the pot as a favorite (be it the best hand or just a monster draw). People just play so loose, and make so many "incorrect" calls that the law of large numbers takes over- I win most of the *hands* that I decide to play, but loose most of the *tournaments*. Over the long term, Im just not making a profit and I dont know why.

Am I doing something wrong? Should I be folding hands even when I think Im ahead (and when should I do this)? Am I just terribly unlucky? What could I possibly do different? I had suspected that as long as Im playing well and getting my chips into the pot with the best hand most of the time, I would win at least often enough to turn a small profit over time in the sit and go's, but Im beginning to question that. Any thoughts?

I guess I should add that I do fine at both the limit and no limit tables (the non-tournament, just-for-fun play) which is where I make my chips to play the sit and go's and tournaments.

At the play tables, you are not going to get the correct play. There just isn't any risk when playing with play chips. That being said when I play freerolls, I'm not afraid to gamble to start with. If you bust out early, you don't have a lot of time invested. If you hit a couple of times then you have a big stack and can settle down and play a good game. And once you have a bigger stack, your bad beats usually won't take you out and what seems like 90% will get more realistic.

As for "Just for fun SnGs" I don't have much experience but might go with ultra tight to start. Let the idiots take themselves out or in the very least you will know who they are if they are on a lucky streak. I'm thinking in a "just for fun" SnG you could just sit out and probably bubble.

But it sounds like you are saying that there is no correct way to play poker under these circumstances. Is there really no way to take advantage of such bad play to turn a profit, given these circumatances? Just try to get lucky early on (to have a large stack) is the only real advice?

At the play tables pick a style of play & stick with it for a few SNG's. Then switch styles & do the same again. Find out which styles you are comfortable with & which seem to pay off. Start reading some books or check out some of the articles & discussions on this site. As Alon said nothing is at risk at the play tables so you aren't going to be able to get consistent straight play or anything resembling it from our opponents. Good luck, one can learn a lot just browsing this site.

It sound like you have found the correct way and that is at the ring games. Tournies are a game of elimination and what I stated is the way I usually play. Others may suggest a solid game to start but I find it discouraging to play a solid game and doing well only to be below average an hour or two into the tourney and getting bullied. It is just hard to play and consistantly win against so many players who just don't care at these levels.

There are all sort of ways to play. You have to look what you are good at and your style and blend it into a way to win.

You can play the standard tight/aggressive. Play few hands and bet aggressively when you play a hand. You wait for only the great starting hands and make people pay to see every card.

You can play loose/passive. See ton of flops cheap and outplay people after the flop when you hit. Don't raise till you hit and/or trap the aggressives when they bet it out.

Random thoughts from your post:
Tournaments and S&G's are sort of a crap shoot. You only have to get rivered once and you are done. In the ring games that you seem to do OK at you can just rebuy/rebuy/rebuy. Tournament you have to value every last chip and try to make the most of it.

You could also just be on a cold streak of cards that has lasted longer than most.

Poker is more than the cards. You have to look back at hands/tournaments and see where you could have made a play to win more chips with one more value bet or someone played you and learn from it.

Maybe you are overbetting pots and risking more chips than you need to for the blinds at the time and then just getting unlucky. How are you playing your "monster draws"? Can you give us some hand examples so we can see what you mean.

Here are the hands that killed me in the last 90 person and the past two 18 person sit and go's (I finished 22nd, 6th, and 9th, respectively- no payment for any of them):

1) One person at the table suddenly started moving all his chips in preflop quite a bit (about four times in six hands, prior to the hand I played). He was called two of those times, and both times he had only a moderate starting hand (AToff, KJs)- he lost one of these to a shorter stack and beat two other players in another to put him at just slightly more chips than me. From early position, he moved all his chips in again. I was in middle position with QQ, and I was betting, correctly, that he didnt have a great hand so I called (and everyone else folded). He had JToff. The cards came

6 Q T 8 9

giving him a straight to eliminate me.

2) From early position, I raised 4x the BB with AKoff. The button (chip leader) and BB both called me. Both players had been playing fairly loose throughout (not unusal in these sit and go's). The flop was

K 3 9

with two hearts. I didnt have any hearts, and assuming (correctly) that I had the best hand, I just decided to take the relatively large pot right there if I could, so I moved all in. The chip leader called me with J6off (the jack was a heart) and he made his backdoor flush to knock me out.

3) There was a raise from middle position, and I reraised from the button with TT. He called. The flop was three small cards, and he immeadiately moved all in. I was betting that if he had a large pair, this guy would have moved in preflop, and if he had trips he would have played them slower. I assumed he either had two overcards or made a pair on the flop, so I called. Turns out, I was right. He had A plus a small card that had paired on the flop, and he drew an A on the river (for two pair) to knock me out.
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With any "big draw" where I am a favorite on the flop, but know I am against a made hand, I will generally play it quite hard. I figure that if I am a favorite, I shouldnt be afraid of getting called, and I always have the chance to make the oponent fold, so I bet hard (I bet the pot if I bet first, and will reraise any bet to go all in).
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Ive only been playing for 6 months, but I have been doing a great deal of reading and studying as well as playing, and I have spent a great deal of time (re)analysing my own play online (at sites which keep records of hands/games Ive played). Does that help?

first thing i can tell you is that your not playing your odds right. Wait for your hands and dont go for a coin flip and go all in take your time and use skill not luck. A book that might help you if your only playing tournys is Dan Harringtons Harrington on holdem book one and two.
This will give you the help you need to start winning and stay that way.

I will always agree with anyone that recommends these books. Additionally, there is also a volume 3 that he has put out.

Also, yes, keeping detailed records is an absolute must.
There is some good software on the market that can help make life a little easier too.
http://www.pokertracker.com/ is very popular and very good. You may want to check it out.

Another option (or do both) is Poker Ace HUD.
I think it is http://www.pokeracesoftware.com.

one other book that might help is Killer Poker Online. This deals with online pitfalls and money management. The chapter on keeping book is its best feature.

Im not sure what makes you think Ive ever done otherwise, but it certainly couldn't have been from the hands I posted (since I was always way better than a coin flip in those hands, and only moved all in in one of the three- the other two I was calling all-ins). Perhaps you see something I dont and could explain yourself?


Anyway, as an update, my luck has turned around a bit as of late. I have made the final table in three of the last four 90 person tournys Ive played and made first in two of them. I also made 24th, 45th, and 61st in the last three 1800 person tournys. I make a lot of mistakes, but I can see my play improving every week. Now that my luck has turned around, I can focus on the more important things.

Let me say first off there is nothing wrong with your play. What is wrong is your expectation of winning all the time with the top hand PF or after the flop. You will always have donks callin like they did to you. And sometimes they hit the hand. The thing that changes is that over the long haul you will see winning results for you while they still will be donks.

Keep on playing the way you are. Make sure you aren't playing at levels too high for your bankroll. Be able to absorb some rough times. Tweak your play.

You sound like you are on the road to being a good player. It's sometimes hard to make that transition from play chips to the real thing. But it sounds like you are doing pretty good so far. Check out some of the playing threads here. I believe t1riel has some really good ones on playing SNGs.

Good luck and keep us posted on your success.

Hello Dude, about your constant loosing, this is how you start... once you begin to understand poker odds you will be in situations that just by the way the flop is coming out you Know your AK suits has nothingt to do with it ? so after youve seen 3 c cards you take your decision and get rid of something that wont get you profit which would be AK in a straight Kind of flop