Topping off

i just moved into cash games and have been watching some vids. I see that people top off their stacks after a 20 or 30 bb loss. What is the general theory behind this? How does this effect BRM? Any links y'all know of that could help?
Thanks all
Wet

I personnally top off because i am playing tight and usually get it in good so when i get it in i want to get in as much as possible. If i get it all in as a heavy favorite i want to bet as much as i can. Sometimes they suck out and you lose more but most of the time they wont.

I use the "Auto-Top" option so even if I fold the SB it will topoff to full stack.


The reasoning behind this is that if I feel I have an edge over the villain or table I want to have as many chips in front of me as possible for a double up.

Few (non-definitive list) reasons to have as large a stack as you can:

1. If you get a monster hand, you'd prefer having as large a stack as possible. If you flopped quads and hadn't topped off, so you only had 50bb's in front of you, you'd be a little disappointed in the results.

2. There are plays you can make deeper stacked that will not work w smaller stacks. If effective stacks get too small relative to the pot, you have to have a hand in order to make a bet/raise.

3. The shorter the effective stacks, the fewer streets of play. If effective stacks are 50bb's, we're not going to worry about playing the river much in an aggressive spot, since all the money will be in on the turn.

Excellent, thanks all. How does this factor into BRM?
I used it tonight and was very pleased to hit my set on one table after I topped up while boating up on another table.
Am I getting to picky here about how this affects BR? My BR is 47 BI. Do I need to think about this?

If the difference between topping off and not topping off ruins your BRM, you are cutting it too close anyway.

I'm not sure I understand why you think this would affect BRM in any way... I guess if you do not have any tracking software and have been using each single stack that you buy in with as your measurement.

Rather than that, just check your cashier at the beginning and end of your session and compare the two to see if you are up or down...

KyleJRM
My BR is 45 BIs so its not cutting it close. Its simply a practice (seems to be a standard one) that I havenever thought about.......Im that new. So I was just asking. I use PT3 for tracking STUBZ.
Thanks all. Looks like I was overthinking something.

As many have said, I believe the main reason for topping off whenever they aren't at a full stack is strictly for the ability to win the max (a double up of a full buyin/etc) every hand they are dealt.

Another reason(albeit small) that I have heard a lot of people say is that it won't affect you as much when you're down because the least you will ever see when you look down is the max buyin. Leatherass talks about this a bit in his book that if you are paying attention to your losses(which would be very easy to do when not re-topping) then you simply aren't going to play as well and more than likely you are going to be trying to play to win that money back. Granted there are other ways you can check how much you're up or down(ie. Cashier, HEM session stats, , etc.) but this will make it not be right in front of your face.

My obvious reasons for topping off is for exactly what sly said, but there are some added psych reasons as well.

Hadn't really thought of that until now but I think that's a rather good reason for auto topping. I think if I played without topping up I would be constantly trying to get back up to my initial buy in which would affect my decisions and probably end up losing me money.

I've been topping off for my last three sessions now and have noticed some improvements in those sessions. Whether its coincidence Im not sure but I like it, for all the reasons mentioned..... Thanks everyone.

I guess I can try that again, but not sure. I only tried auto-topping one time, I was playing bad but didn't notice because of it and ended up losing alot.

Right now I like to have it turned off just so I can track my progress at tables, and notice if I'm losing to get me thinking if I need to re-think the strategy for that table, did I play wrong etc.

I do manually top off if if my stacks hits about 85 bbs though, so it's not that big of a difference. I'm wondering if my "reverse" psychological reasons are bad for me and I should try auto top off again though...

From what I've been learning, using $ to track your progress can easily lead to disappointment. Moreover, even with topping off you can use $ money to track progress... If you've been topping off a lot and your stack is still at table limit well then you'll know that you're not winning.

auto- top off is the standard for most. In fact an 50-90bb stack is a great indicator for fish. whereas a 20bb-40bb stack could be a pro shortstacker, the 50-90bb are generally just recreational players.
if you'll pay a bit of attention you'll notice that in most tables the full stacks all converge on those almost full stacks and try to pick them off.

That's how I am, unless the person is in their first hand at the table, if they don't have 100BB, then I know they aren't serious about the game. Granted even the biggest fish could get lucky before I came to the table and have 250BB, but it's usually a good indicator.

Sweeeeeeeeeeeeet advice Hamm. I've been learning to pick on the 60 - 70 bb stacks. Fantastic.

I don't judge people by their stack if it's bigger than the max BI - hell, I've given plenty of fish chips when they've sucked out on me - but I do if it's less than max

I also have Auto Top-up on; if you have enough faith in your ability as a player at that level to be playing, then you shouldn't be worried about losing all your money because you didn't realise you were draining. I generally find that relatively soon after sitting down I've stolen some blinds and am up over the $2 anyway

Hey! Thanks for the tip! I top up to get paid on my winning hands. I had not thought about measuring other people's stacks as a source to pick on them. I do go after those with less than 20 BB just because there is nothing to lose and they often overplay 2 high cards or even worse.

I will be on the lookout for places to prey on those in the 50-90 BB size. We'll see if I can adapt my game, but it gives me another piece to work on and see how that plays out. Many thanks for the idea...

Toping off can be a good strategy.. but playing with a relative small stack has it's advantages too. On online low limit tables with agressive players and players who bluff alot I find I can neutralize ther bully plays by having a smaller stack and calling them more often and risking less of my BR. Just a thought ...

What you're really doing is making sure your BR doesn't increase too much. How is having a low stack 'neutralizing' anything?

When you call their bluffs and have the best hand you're losing $$$ alot by not having a big enough stack to pay their bluffs. Anyone that's not a complete maniac will tag you as a calling station when you call once with mid-pair, low pair and will only value bet you, then you will lose because you're calling too often.

Calling with weak hands is the worst thing you can do against bluffs, either raise (re-bluff) or fold.

I'm guessing you don't know how to get value for your good/great hands either, if you did you wouldn't appreciate a low stack at all...

i dont like topping off, i like going into a cash game with a stack that if i lose wont hurt me but will make me rethink playinga cash table that day. and will also allow me to play good solid poker with it too

From what you say there I gather you're not using proper BRM (bankroll management) if losing a 100BB stack will hurt you.

Seems to me you're playing with scared money, there's no 'good solid poker' in that...

I do top off, but not automatically. I like to watch how much I top off so I know I'm not just leaking money since I tend to play a more conservative weak/tight PLO game. I lose a lot of small pots but win a lot of big ones, but the small losses can really add up.

If you are a winning player topping off is good strategy because it increases how much you can win.

Let's say you lose $1.50 in a $10NL ($.05/$.10) game.
A few hands later you get all in pre-flop with A/A vs K/K and you double up.
If you topped off you win a $19.15 pot.
If you didn't top off you win a $16.30 pot.

The very next hand your A/Q of clubs goes up against the big stack's K/J clubs on a 8/7/6 all-clubs flop. You double up!

If you topped off you win a $36.52 pot
If you didn't top off you win a $31.11 pot.

By not topping off that $1.50 early on, you're cost yourself $5.41 in winnings. That's more than half a buy-in!

Now to be fair, sometimes topping off means you will lose more when you get cold-decked or sucked out on. But if you are winning player having more chips means that you will win more money on average.

Well that's obvious Savage, but nevertheless I am done with auto-top off for now. I will still do it manually though, because it will better keep me off tilting I think...and allow me to take a break and think how did I lose x$ on this table?

I'm not advocating playing less than 100BI's though, I will still do that...and yes I will trade off the rare situations where I'll stack up before the chance to top off manually...

If you've got PT3 just click on the HUD and it'll tell you how much you are down on that table

I know, but it's more in-your-face that way...I guess I have too many tilt issues actually, and they overcome the benefit of auto top-off....

Self-discipline is the only thing stopping you maximising profits I guess then?

I think everyone did a goood job of covering the strategy and the reasons for topping off. As far as bankroll management is concerned, nothing really changes. Just as you continue to top off you need to be aware of what your balance is on the site--that is if you hold to a site BRM practice*. Also, i you are losing your shirt and keep topping off, maybe it's time to look and see if maybe you need to find a new table.

*Some people consider their BR the entire amount of money available to play with their bankroll--all sites and money at home. Others use a site BRM principal. This is that only the money on the one poker site is their Bank Roll.

there was a point made about people with 20bb overvaluing two high cards... this might be a leak for some people so I feel its important to cover this, maybe it deserves a different thread or maybe it doesn't but when you have such a shortstacker the ideal play is to dominate your opponents range when shoving and shoving is always right.
Don't try to pick these guys off and unless you have very good cards don't ever try to shove on them because "its only 2$ (if you are playing 10nl for example.)"
There's no such thing as only and you are leaking money by trying to steal from some1 whose whole game plan is to force you into calling his shove with odds on your end and his dominating range on his.
Its a difficult topic to cover as I am not a native speaker and can't really explain it clearly but I feel that this should be discussed because this is a very dangerous player type that can make you leak tremendous amounts of bbs (this isn't relevant for 2,5, and generally 10nl.. starts manifesting in 25nl and certain in 50nl and above.)

I think the number of heaters/coolers over time will come to about even so topping off in these situations just means that you'll lose more as well as lose more. So theoretically the situations you mentioned shouldn't be the difference makers. (Unless you are willing to fold the second nut flush in the AQ/KJ hand you mentioned.)

It does come into play when you are up against a horrible player who does not fold, then you can extract more, assuming he's at least 100BI too.

Ditto

being deeper exaggerates leaks - people play way worse in bigger pots

I agree with most here.

There are some players pros even that play short stacks exceptionally well. In a lot of ways the short stack is easier to play because you have less decisions to make because you're playing more "big pots" compared to your stack sizes.

Playing a large stack well is much more complex. Yes, you have to extract and value bet very well. The large stack player has to be good to great at managing risk vs. reward on every street and have a plan to control the pot size accordingly. That can be difficult at any level.

My advice is play what ever you're more comfortable with. If you have a large skill level advantage vs. most of the table I would recommend a large stack. If you're adjusting to a new level or you're a break even player, playing a shorter stack may simplify things so to master preflop, postflop play, and gaining an understanding of commitment.