Thoughts and suggestions for playing the middle section of holdem MTT

Hi all.

I`ve read all the books, looked at some links, but I would like to explore this further.

I play a tight game most of the time.

So I find if I catch a few hands early on and I`m up with the leaders I do ok.

But this is also when my problem starts.

I can`t seem to take my chip superiority to the next level.

I find that when I try to steal unless I win my first or second steal attempt I go into my shell and I start to protect my stack.

So I end up scraping into the money.

It seems to have got worse the more I know about poker. I have become more `worried` about the flop, outs, etc and end up `bottling`

And thoughts and ideas would be appreciated guys.

so hmm whats yr question? r u wondering about when u get a nice stack and u try to steal and u mess up? if that here is my suggestion i wouldnt try and stealing any pots with a big stack unless u know u can bully that person out and if its a weak player. also u dont wanna bluff when the other player is pot commited and u know he/she will call. and with a big stack i would play more hands but still stay kind of tight and not worry and just wait for yr chances to win pots. sit back and enjoy the game dont try to play the players with a big stack...let the cards do their job

This and more. I suppose I am getting a little anxious when I get a big stack - I don`t want to lose it. However, I don`t want it to dwindle away. Its picking your spots I suppose.

So are you suggesting loosen up a bit and try to hit some flops?

Depending on your stack size, I agree. See more flops early, but after the opening rounds.
Cheaply is paramount at this stage. Not any two cards, but damn near any two cards into a limped pot in late position, and a stretch from all text in early position would be upper suited connectors, or even occasionally the naked connectors.

There is a stage in MTT's where just about everyone is in limp mode, it is +/- the first break through almost the 2nd break. Here stacks are increased largely from the sit outs, but also from stupid players making stupid moves against someone who actually has the goods. You don't want to compete for any pot unless you are the one with the goods. This is a period of non-confrontation, let others confront, and blow their chip stacks.

Being careful with an early chip lead or above average stack is a recipe for disaster.

You don't have to try to steal, those opportunities will arise automatically.

Do see more flops, with lesser cards, but only when it is cheap.

Stealing blinds doesn't take you to the next level, nor does calling preflop loosely in order to see more flops. You should almost 100% always play tight to start a tourney as it not only protects your position but allows you to observe other players and establish a tight table image which is very beneficial to you after about 2 rounds of blinds. Of course if during early rounds you got AA, QJ suited, 99, etc you still should play them, but play them intelligently not loosely.

After 15 hands or so is time to SWITCH GEARS, which plenty of books or sites talk about. The maniac donkeys have either been busted by that stage, or lucked themselves to big stacks and stopped playing hands. The other players should have been observed by you and notes made of. This is when you should loosen up. Don't worry about stealing blinds.. they don't get you anywhere. Preflop raises aren't there to steal blinds, they are there to build pots. Because you've had a tight table image thus far, you can afford to take down several pots on a decent but not great hand by making flop bluffs, or fire second barrel on the turn and take down a bigger pot with far less than the nuts. Do that a few hands, then switch back to being tight. Alternate between maniac bets once in a while, and very tight most of the table. When you got a big hand, bet very very strong. The table would have absolutely no idea what you're doing and think you're a maniac who's just getting bored or something.

When it gets close to the bubble, you'll find most players tightening up. This is THE time to steal blinds, take down cheap pots on the flop, etc. Go for it on the bubble and build your biggest stack right now.

Once in the money, tighten up while other players, seemingly happy to have made money, donk their chips in.

You follow the simple advice here and you'll do very well in most tourneys.

ok where to begin with this post, lets break it down.




ok if you are playing tight in the beginning then QJ suited is pretty much junk. But that is besides the point, what you run depends on a lot like position and how many limpers etc etc. And playing nitty early on is a good strategy but so is limping alot and mixing it up. This is not bad advice though.




I have the biggest problem with this you are saying we should see 15 hands and then lossen up . you are not even out of level 2 yet, this is way to early to get info on players, way too early.

actully you should be taking down pots PREFLOP not on the flop, you should be re-stealing at this stage not trying to outplay someone on the flop.



last thing is ok,

in general you should not start stealing blinds until there are ante's because it is not profitable before hand. And you should be looking to resteal, if you notice someone has donk bet on the button or cutoff numerous times these are chances to re-steal.

LMAO, QJ-suited "JUNK"?? You just about made me spill my coffee here. Even for a tight player, early on, regardless of position, if there's a couple of limpers, min raise/call preflop, etc, you gotta play this hand. If you consider that junk then you aren't really at a level capable of "breaking down" my post ;-)

I said around 15 hands, depending on table size. 2 rounds. Way too early to get a read on any player? So you mean to tell me that you can't decide that someone who's played 13 out of first 15 hands or raised big preflop 6 times out of first 17 hands isn't giving off a particular tell? Or someone being made to fold by successive flop/turn big bets in 3 or 4 hands earlier on isn't giving a tell? That's fine, you can stay put then, but the OP wants to know how to move UP ;-)

Lastly, focusing on taking down pots preflop isn't the way to build a big stack which the OP wants to know. But if you are focusing on that and raising/reraising with junk, what if you get called? reraised? Do you try to forcibly reraise all in to take it down? Do you stop cold in your tracks on the flop? Sounds like that's what you do buddy..... gotta love those live ones that try so hard to take down pots preflop and once get called, freeze on the flop ;-)

I guess you didnt read the part of the post that said "it depends on limpers before you and position", I understand words are hard to read sometimes. And yes QJ is junk in early position for the simple reason you know nothing about the action of the hand before you have to act, QJ is a trap hand. So you are open limping QJ under the gun im guessing? Since like you said position does not matter right?



I will quote every well know pro here, if you can add 20% to your stack in the 1st hour you are fine. The goal here is to stay around 15 big blinds, not build a 100x BB stack. And yes 15 hands is not big enough sample size to get a good read on anyone. You have never had a run of hands like that? or a table where you thought you could push people around?



actully the origional post was about stealing and how to play middle stages of a tourney, if you have ever played a big buy in tourney during the middle stage there is more preflop play then postflop. And no I pick my spots very well actully, I do it against people I know I have fold equity against and will fold a majority of the time and I do it with hand that if I do get called it is very unlikley that I will be dominated.


as for me personally I have had pretty good results in tourneys but I dont go into them on here, the people that know me on here know about my live trips and stuff but I dont boast my specific details because well I think its just cruddy to say I did this and I did that na na na. Everyone knows im a cash game idiot though!

If that's how you see the original post, but he said he wanted to take it "to the next level", and that isn't done by stealing blinds or any preflop play.

One of my fav kind of players are those who raise preflop and stop cold on the flop, or bet weak on the flop and check the turn. Preflop play is worthless if you don't already know your strategy postflop.. "any pro" will tell you that.

ok now that you have calmed down and we can actually discuss this we will, calm now?

I'm not really talking about re-raising to see a flop, I'm talking about shoving on someone that you perceive as weak with a marginal hand but with good showdown value against your opponents range.

like for instance lets say you have something like 7s8s in the big blind and the button makes his 3rd button raise. Shoving here is a good play for the simple reason that he does not have to have a big hand and there is a real good chance you are taking it down right here and if he happens to call it is very unlikely you are dominated here.

late tourney play totally depends on your stack size in relation to the blinds more then the cards you hold. There are times you have to shove regardless of your cards and there on the flip side are times you have to call regardless of your cards. Just like there are times you should not raise on the button because you know you would have to call either blind shoves.

if he has a big stack and ends up losing to blind steals a lot the obviously he is picking his spots very poorly against players that are willing to play back at him. Against those players you just cant position raise unless you have a real hand and you should just let them walk.

I've always been calm, you apparently not lol.

So you think QsJs is "junk", but 7s8s is a shoving hand? lmao So let me get this.... you shove hoping someone will fold, and if they call you're busted? Do you even understand risk/reward, you're risking your whole stack to steal blinds on a hand that is at a huge dog against any pockets, and worst of all, any junk K3, Q4, let alone AK AJ etc.

Only fish would shove with that hand, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE. Enough said.

you obviously know nothing about mid to late tourney play then, I guess that make Mkind, annette, Rizen etc fish right? because they would all concider that pretty standard given certain situations I described. QJ is junk in 1st 3 levels in early position for the simple reason you will be dominated a majority of the time and even in late stages 78s has better showdown value vs QJ to a raise and that pretty much is something you can not argue because it is a fact. I could run it through pokerstove if you like?

you are pretty set on your ways so no need to talk serious strategy with you since you play basic nit poker and cant think beyond your cards.

Hahaha you're making me laugh out so loud.

78 suited is the CLASSIC hand that plays well on the flop and very very badly in a preflop all-in showdown.

Thanks for the personal attacks, but sharkscope does say that you are Super Tilt, not having cashed for many tourneys in a row.

I guess we know why ;-)

PS I don't play under this name on sites so no need to try ;-)

Im with Stormwa on this.

Shark vs. Fish....something tells me you aren't the shark.

As for the OP, these are somethings I do:

-Loosen up your range of hands, especially in position.

-Raise more hands in position.

-If the blinds are weak go after them.

-Defend your blinds to keep the button from running over you.

-Go after the weak, tight players. I also like to go after the shortstack because you force them to have a hand.

-Go after those small, unwanted pots. Especially when flops are dry and its checked to you.

-You dont be afraid to reraise someone if you think they are weak.

-Dont be afraid to lay down your hand if you get caught trying to steal.

-Another thing is you dont have to commit a lot of your chips when you're on a steal. Yes, you are trying to build up your stack. It might cost you a little bit to try and take down pot, but you need to be protecting your stack as well. There is no need to bet out 8x the BB on a steal when 2.5 - 3x the BB will be just as effective.

I like the way the thread is going

The above quote is a valid point. As I`m relativley new to poker (18 months) and as I am a `structured` kind of person, I possibly follow the `system` too much.

I feel when I have a big stack and I am on the button I should steal. I don`t take into concideration the players in the blinds as much as I probably should. I think the same can be said for playing the small blind. I tend to limp too much.

Possibly I should start to open pots with raises rather than calls???

What do you think - become more aggressive when opening a pot???

NEVER open pots with calls. If you're entering a pot first, raise. A hand that's not worth raising is not worth playing anyway.

As for the original topic: If you have a chip lead, wait to pick up a good hand (AK, AQ, QQ, JJ, etc), make a standard button raise. If the flop hits you, c-bet it. If the other player calls, bet the turn pretty strongly as well. Try to get it to a showdown with a winning hand. Once the other players have seen you play a good hand from the button and c-bet the flop, it will be much easier to steal pots throughout the next blind level or two. NEVER show down hands you know are no good (fold to opponents' bets if you know they want a showdown but your hand is no good). If you do not connect with flop, c-bet anyway. Once you've established that you will be raising good hands on the button, you should be c-betting every time. If you put your opponent on a semi-good hand after he calls your c-bet, and you don't have a hand, bet the turn and river hard in hopes that there will be no showdown this hand. Opponents often back down after calling a c-bet on the flop with a semi-good hand, hoping that their opponent won't fire any more bullets.

Well here is huge hole in your game. You should NOT be cold calling PF unless you have a speculative hand with really good odds or implied odds. (set mining for example) This is the position where 78 suited is BY FAR better then QJ. Generally speaking though, cold calling PF in mid to late stages of a MTT is bad. Either reraise or fold. Weak players will be the third or fourth person in the pot with hands like AJ, AT, KQ, I'd much rather have 78s here.

One of the statements I heard recently about what makes a good online MTT player is selective aggression. Be first in the pot with a raise. Play your position, and pick on people that seem weak.

Don't forget that even weak tight players will wake up with a hand once in a while.

Reread what Philthy wrote, very good bullet points there.

shark you need to chill the **** out. you seem like an abc player. because of this restealing/stealing may seem foreign to you, but it is correct.

I'm rather new like you Ron, I've been playing on and off for 3 years, but when i say on and off, I mean a bunch of freerolls (which i've done good in) and then a few months of no poker =P.

Now that I'm getting serious, I realize that you and I share the same problem: Just being worried about someone out drawing us or over playing a hand, and definitely how to play late in the tournament that's gone on for 2-4 hours already. There have been some great points: First and foremost people tend to clam up big time as the cut off approaches, and that's a great time to steal blinds with suited connectors, face card and a good kicker, and even high, unsuited connectors (which really to me is 10-9 in a good position, or J10). This strategy helped me place 13th in a tournament with 3,000 starting people (and that's when they stopped the tournament because the top 50 advanced to the weekly final, which i got 53/1000 in). Now, Ive done well in a few tournaments, and poorly in more but I must say that in a MTT tournament, with a lot of people, luck does not carry you to the final 10-20%, so I must be doing something okay (or there is a god with a sense of humor =P)

Most of the times I do a shift in gears from blind stealing to tight and then somewhere in between. The thing about stealing is you cannot be remotely predictable about it because late in a tournament there is a good chance there are a few good people at your table. If you always steal in certain positions, while it's a smart Idea, it can also lead to people reraising. You can minimize this, in my opinion (which is probably not worth much seeing as I'm just a novice), by using the experienced person's experience against them. They know when it's good to blind steal, and thus are more likely to pick up on it when you do it the 'right' way. However, every now and then blind stealing from, say, mid position, or even 3rd position, helps you get away with more steals. The experienced player on the button was thinking about stealing, but thinks that since your raising in a weaker position, you're most likely not blind stealing, but actually have a hand and are trying to double up or knock someone down with it. Unless his hand is good, theres a good chance you wont get a call or re-raise from them and take down a pot. Of course this has the danger of the blinds having something, but that's a risk you'll play when blind stealing in most positions pre-flop. Of course this all depends on the image you've presented, and the other person(s) as well. The odds in the long run of blind stealing from early to late position are probably bad, but if you throw it in there every now and then (maybe if your blind steal attempt earlier was ruined?) it has the advantage of being unpredictable and misread.

I like to steal post flop, because closer to the cutoff/final table most people wont call you even if they have mid to top pair. Hell, if there's even a straight or flush opportunity (or even a draw opportunity for any great hand!) on the board, i've seen a lot of people get out of the way quickly even if they bet like they had a good pair. There are still people at this stage who dont want to loose to a bad beat, or dont want to risk their stack against someone who it seems has a flush/straight or has one more card to get it. I've noticed this from a bit over half the people i've gone against at this point. Afterwards the play is all about being unpredictable and playing a style that'll counteract your opponents tendencies.

Mostly it's all about reading your opponents. While im not very experienced, i must back up the assertion that 15 hands is no where close to being reliable enough to have a read on people in the early stages. Many times i've had little information on people because I've never seen a hand of their's after 20-30 hands, even more. They could be playing rock solid and always have a hand, or bluffing half the time, but unless I see a hand of their's it's hard to get good reads (that I know of, i could be wrong). Unless of course they're betting like they have a great hand 50-70 percent of the time, then you know somethings fishy Finally, it's hard to get a read on all your opponents after 15 hands because, in MTT's (especially the large one's i've played in) people in the beginning phases go out quick, and after 15 hands either i've got 4 new people at my table, or I'm moved to a new table with 9 other people I dont know at all. And while you might have a read on 2-3 people, those other people are wild cards, and when trying to steal blinds or be aggressive, chances are you'll be playing against people who you haven't figured out well enough yet.

If I can say one thing from experience, is that I am much more successful if, during the early stages, I play the survival game. Play mid pair or higher, and premium hands like AK and KQ (both suited) and possibly QJ suited (all depends on position, although the latter tends to cause me more trouble than it seems to be worth =P) I get some nice wins from the BB because I can steal pots i miss with ease depending on how many people are left since people realize that you could have limped in on the BB with anything (I promptly get out if reraise, then I know someone really did have something)

Guess my point after this long, and probably incorrect, post is to get to know your table before you start loosening up. Then you know you can pot steal from mid position because the only people after you right now to bet are all tight players, and when to call people who are stealing because you know your odds of having them beat pre-flop are quite nice.

of course this is all from my experience, which is limited compared to most on here and you can take or leave it as it is. I dont want people to say 'you're a moron blah blah blah' or say 'wow i laughed when i read this' if you disagree please tell me, I have much to learn about poker and would love to improve my game as well.

I quoted the 1st part to know im directing this to you. this is a great post, mainly because you are honest and give your opinion and I just skimmed through it but most seemed fine. THis is a great start to the forum and welcome, trust me when we say you are more then welcome here.

supposedly I'm mean to new users here, but if they made honest posts like this I would be the nicest guy in the world. Take note new users just be honest and dont act like it should be our honer to read what you type.

i started reading a little and stormswa and some1 else were arguing about something and i didnt even bother reading it....here is another suggestion to ya. i understand u dont wanna mess around with yr stack and end up losing it but u do wanna play more hands and try to hit hands that u know u got the nuts and add to yr chip stack. ( u will lose a pot or 2 since u cant win every hand.) also i suggest if the blinds r for example 100-200 and the pot is 500 and lets say yr stack is 15k...my suggestion is if u know ur up against a tight player and even if he checks to u...dont try to do something stupid and get yrself in trouble and lose more chips. u only put 200 in to the pot so its not a big deal. also i would suggest playing any 2 suited connectors if nobody raised. like lets say u play 4and 5hearts...u hit A23....lets say ur up against a loose player that plays hands like A2...boom u got him right there. lets say ur up against a tight opponent. for example he/she got 10 10 and limped in to the pot. u got 67 flop comes 2 6 7 rainbow...the tight players (most) usually will bet big to try and protect their hand (most rookies) and once again u re raise and he/she will think for a while and either fold or reraise u all in. right there r some good way to get a nice stack. also if u got like 15K and someone goes all in for 5k and u got a flush draw i wouldnt chase it unless ur felling really lucky and ur hitting everything. but if it was 1k and cheap then go for it. i think i answered all of yr questions..if u got anymore just let me know and i will try and help ya (not trying 2 brag or anything but im a very good tourney player and i have made plenty of fts.) my style is designed to go far in the tourney but sometimes i do lose early. i really dont wanna sit there in a tourney for 2 or 3 hours and then win like 5$ ( i wanna win big)

I find this post very condescending to the many new members here who try and get involved with the cardschat community.

I have a really early work start today and being that it is saturday i decided to pop in and read some positive stuff before i set off for the day and i end up reading this instead.

So new members dont make honest posts?

New members act like you should be honored to read what they type?

You are way out of line with these comments and need to pull your head in big time.

And whats with the "we say" and "our" phrases you used?

You can forget that for a start.

Supposedly you are mean to new users here?

No you are not, you are down right rude and argumentative actually.



My apologies to Ron for going off topic with your OP and my apologies to those enjoying this thread, i was enjoying it also, to a point.

But enough is enough in my view, and i am sure i will get to see the fallout from it all when i get back home sometime this afternoon.

thank you stormswa =) Im cautious about being firm in my opinions because all too often in poker (and life for that matter =P) it seems i never know enough to be sure.

I really like what bob_tiger mentioned: Dont be too eager to throw a lot of chips at pots, and dont be eager to knock people out, especially chasing flush/straight draws. Most often the people who lead at the beginning of the freerolls i played were out before half the players were out (and these tournaments had like 3-3.5k people starting out). The top 10-30 chip leaders changed rapidly up until the final 100 due in large part because a lot of those leaders had a lot of chips, and slowly they took too many flush/straight chances or bullied the small stacks too much and over time it drained them. If your gonna leak chips, its much better to leak chips to blind stealers than do what bob said not to do and chase low stacks on your draw.

When i see a chip leader at my table, now and days I just get excited. If i have a big stack, I just know that most chip leaders wont get into a big battle with a large stack player, and if I have a modest chip count, I'm aiming to double up through him. thats why you shouldn't aim for being chip leader until very very late in the tournament. Hell, i seem to do my best when I dont get a large chip stack until mid-late middle of the tournament.

If you happen to make it to chip leader early however, Bob_tiger said it all, trap trap trap. People will often see you either as a big bully or a rock player that they can leak, find out who thinks what and use that as your advantage. This also has the positive of making you seem random. If you play tight against blind stealers and bust them hard with a big hand, but then start to steal pots yourself, people wont know whether you're a bully or someone who's having a good run of cards.

Just dont fall into a sterotype as chip leader, because a lot of your mistakes tend to cost you more than if you weren't chip leader. Try to not look at tournament statistics if its a MTT, and tell yourself that while you lead at your table, there are plenty of large fish out there; or ignore your chip stack strength as much as possible and try to play your game as if you were about tied with most people at your table. Poker is psychological, and a lot of going on tilt is because people dont get their mind straight when the emotions are rushing along

I`m 100% behind this

I am always too worried about winning every pot I enter, so therefore I find mysef in a situation where I can become timid.

I actually played a $10 SNG last night and I raised on almost everytime I entered a pot. Yes, even with 78s in late position, A10 middle position, 88 UTG, etc.

It might have been a one off but I won the SNG. I do normally do ok playing SNG`s but funnilly enough I felt more comfortable.

I got a better feel for what other people had when I was raising and getting called/ reraised.

One hand that stood out was pocket 55, middle position. Folded to me, I raised 4 times bb. One caller, had position on me.

Flop Jc4d7c. I raised 1/2 pot, other guy called.

Turn 3h. I fired again, 1/2 pot, he called.

River Kh. I checked (Possibly a bad move) He then raised about 1/2 pot, about 20% of my stack and the pot represented about 1/2 my stack.

I sat and thought about it and decided "He is on a bust flush draw." I called and bingo, I was right!!! Other possible holdings, set, AJ, etc I though were very unlikely because he would probably have reraised.

It was a great feeling, I took down the pot, and a few things happened after that.

Ppl seemed to avoid me in pots if I started betting, the small blind kept folding, and they were folding to my c bets unless they had a strong hand post flop.

But my point is, if I had done my normal, i.e. limped and tried to catch a flop, I would have folded on the flop - lot more callers, out of position, no stregnth shown, etc.

Thanks for all your help guys.

mojo, all he;s implying is that people should be more aware of their poker selves. i dont think its as much condescending as it is a PSA

Try to be tight in the start, bluffs almost never work then, to many fish around, play some more hands like suited connectors and some lower pairs, and in the final stages its more of a blinds steal then a pokergame, so u gotta adjust to that ass wel :-P
GL on the Felt

hi,
i'm kinda confused here. you mentioned weak players will be the 3rd or 4th into the pot with AJ, AT, KQ etc. do u mean they just flat call with these hands?

imho, i'll probably put the Gap Theory (or is it Concept?) to use here. If the original raiser raised to 2.5-3BB and its folded to me in mid/late position, i'll probably re-raise to 6-7BB here, hoping to be heads-up or take down the pot there. If the original raiser is re-raised before its my turn to act, i'll throw them away.

i've been playing 6mths and i'm still really bad at it...so please feel free to comment on my post.