Tell Me Something I Don't Know

One of the best ways of learning new things is through discussion; even if neither party poker has a valid point the verbal analysis of a subject can be very enlightening. Personally I'm really dumb and slow witted, but I learn ridiculously fast when I manage to trick people smarter than me into talking to me, so I like intelligent discussion and that's what this thread is here for.


It's not that there's a shortage of that here, it's just that I think it can be taken further. So I put forward the challenge to anyone who's willing: can you tell me something I don't know?
It doesn't even have to be me, it can be anyone, all I want you to do is to think about some aspect of poker that you understand better than most. Odds, BRM/risk taking, tells, psychology, game theory, whatever. A lot of people think they're god's gift to poker or have put in the work to get good, so show us what makes you good.


It's only right that in asking for contributions, I give a little first. So even though there are a handful of you guys who're too good to learn anything from me, I'll do my best, and I'll cover a couple of topics to try to be helpful to a diverse audience.


Did you know...

That the vast majority of people are using the wrong pre-flop raise size? 3bb and 4bb are good, and are both effective raise sizes but their effectiveness is dictated by your VPIP which should change depending on your opponents and position. A loose range works better with smaller bets, a wider range works better with bigger bets. Consider if a 12/12 player is a nit and a 36/30 a LAG, the former is better off with 4bb and the latter with 3bb. Now consider what type of player you are by position, if you look up your stats by position in PT/HEM and you're not losing money overall then there's a very good chance you play as a nit and a LAG at the same table.

Now, what if we don't confine ourselves to 3bb or 4bb, what if we consider 2bb and 5bb, 6bb even. Could the kind of ranges we could play with these raise sizes be profitable? Think about it, adjust it, adjust it 30 times over, thank me when you make more money (or lose less).


Did you know...

20 max buy ins IS adequate to withstand the swings of poker over a reasonable timeline, if you always move down in stakes. Even just hanging around CC, you'll see that the better players will all say the same thing "I'm a bankroll nit" and they don't mean 20BI, they mean 30, 40, 50 or 100.

20BI is substantial enough to handle the swings if you always move down.

But 20BI is very risky.

BRM is about more than sustaining the variance from your winrate. You play better when you're not emotionally attached to a buy in, the only way this isn't true is if you play truly terribly the rest of the time (and that should be what you're fixing). Secondly, you won’t always move down, you're human and when that megafish bad beats you for 200bb and drops your BR down to 19BI, unless you're Chris Ferguson you're not leaving your seat, hang around long enough and your roll can go down the toilet really, really fast. Check the brags, bad beats and variance section for horror stories.

Final thought, at 20BI or 100BI, your probability of going broke is 100% given enough time, your only job is to increase the timeline between now and then and the easiest way of doing that is to add a few more buy ins of padding.

I am not saying any set BRM is best, I am saying that you should intelligently think about a few things: Are you okay with losing your BR? Are you 100% tilt free, and since you're not, how bad can you tilt? Double the amount of BI you think you can lose and you get a more realistic number. Decide on your own bankroll requirements, but know this is simply a matter of managing a very legitimate risk.

Did you know...

Ok, this one is for the newest of you because everyone else knows already, but it’s common enough that I’m adding it anyway.

Deeper stacks favour the more skilled player. Simply put the closer the stacks get to the size of the blinds the more correct it becomes for both players to push their stacks in. It becomes harder for your opponent to make mistakes since their favourite one (calling) is better than folding, when short stacked.

Also rake is capped, that means when you go all in 100bb against 100bb, you pay the same, or near the same amount of rake as when you go all in 20bb against 20bb. Rake adds up really, really fast.

Also, short buy ins don’t mean you need a smaller bankroll, you need at least the same size bankroll to buy in at 20bb as 100bb.



Ok, so I think I’ve now covered a lot of stuff that most people don’t know, but I think there’s quite a few of you who haven’t learned much/anything yet. As much of a challenge as that may be, I’ll make an attempt.

Have you ever thought about...

The biggest single bet is on the river (but pre-flop and flop bet sizes may be worth more in total, given their frequency), have you ever put much thought into how draws get to value bet or fold here. Getting value and avoiding giving value, when it really counts. Made hands however give value against bigger hands and get value only from smaller made hands.

As much of a fan as I am of value betting really thin, this does indicate that your value betting range against anyone who’s not a calling station, should be weighted towards the stronger end of your made hands range and you should check back more of the middle/bottom of your range.

Did you know that you fold/call too easy on the river?

A lot of otherwise good players fold to 3rd barrels of pot size or less, because despite the odds that you’re getting “omg, he bet 3 streets, he must have it!” yeah, he probably does, but don’t get blinded to the pot odds. The pot odds heavily favour being a calling station on the river, when faced with pot size or less. Most otherwise decent players forget this.

Whilst people fold too easily to pot size or smaller bets they call too light against overbets (this bit I’m not sure about). The problem with overbetting is that it lets the other guy fold out all of his rags and call with just the very top of his range, make sure you’re doing this.

Your range should be drastically different when faced with a 100% pot bet and a 200% pot bet, and you should almost never fold to a 20% pot bet (against an unknown, your mouse clicking finger should be itching above the call button with A high here). Don’t determine your calling/folding range as heavily on whether you think he has it or not, make sure you’re considering the pot odds and call small bets a lot lighter than most of you do.

Continuing on from that...
Did you know that you should fold easily on early streets?

Yes, you did. But I need to clarify anyway. You can call river bets because it ends the action, on earlier streets you’re not calling just a percentage of the pot but you’re actively accepting to continue playing in a pot of increasing size, this is bad with marginal hands (not bad as in you shouldn’t do it, bad as in undesirable).


So after this extremely long post.
I issue my challenge again, which may well go ignored but who knows, maybe I’ll inspire a little more intelligent discussion.
What do you know that the rest of us don’t?

im working now but i cant wait home to discuss this...a great read!!!


cheers and gl
wooter

Awesome idea for a thread pokerkid!

A couple of simple ones:

Did you know that the single biggest leak of microstakes players is that they call too much? Knowing that should have a huge impact on how you plan your plays against standard microstakes players - bet alot/frequently when you have a strong hand, but don't bluff as often because they'll call down w mediocre hands.

Did you know that pot size management relative to effective stacks is important, and that your betsizing plan needs to start pf or on the flop in order to maximize your value betting? When you have a monster, your goal is to get stacks in the middle. You generally want to be sizing your bets in order to not have to overshove the river as much as possible. Corrollary - if you see a good player suddenly changing betsizing in such a way that he can easily get stacks in on the river, and you've been playing passively, be careful.

Did you know that you still want a good hand when playing against a donkey? Just because they are seeing every flop and showing down 50% of hands doesn't mean you can call them down for 1/2 your stack with 99 with2 overcards on the flop . You'll want at least top pair with a decent kicker or an over pair before calling off your chips to them. Don't loosen up your regular requirements too far because they are playing a lot of hands. What could they be holding that you can beat?

Did you know that your first 3 bet and 4 bet in a game should be a bluff. You get so much resect for it it's like taking candy from a baby.

Why would I take candy from a baby? I'm rich. I can afford my own candy. And that baby probably has a savings account with $25 dollars in it. That's just wrong.

Great responses


Blind stealing
With TAGs on your left, blind stealing is almost always profitable with ATC and the only reason to ever open fold on the button (without a calling station in the blinds) is to maintain your fold equity for future blind steals.
If there's one area of your game that you want to do the calculations on, it's blind stealing it will add bb/100 to your winrate.
Once you've done the maths, notice that there is no strategy of blind defence that makes your steals -EV (easier for you to achieve with lower raise sizes and requires you to shift to less frequent bets for value vs calling stations).

Light 3betting
Same as above, do the calculations. How often do you need this guy to fold if you raise by x amount to show an immediate proffit? If his fold to 3bet is that high, it's the same as blind stealing where the only reason to fold is to maintain your fold equity for future steals. - That is simplified a bit, sometimes folding is best, but even if you don't pick yout spots as long as your calculations are correct it will make you money.
Once you've figured out how often you need him to fold, consider a different raise size and think about how much fold equity you will have then. Rinse and repeat until you've found the best size.

Do the maths on these two, they're both areas of your game you can be completely confident in because your frequencies can be unexploitable (3betting light, if your opponent if your opponent is really, really good then you need to learn to deal with light 4bets, but ignore that if you're in the micros.).
They can also both be done without cards. That helps, a lot.

I think this article helped me a lot. I was not thinking about light 3bets like blind steals. I understood why it's a mistake to call 3bets from people who often 3bet.

I got a good general idea why light-3betting is good and why it's good to be very aggressive all the time.

The sole purpose is to make the other person go on tilt and play back at you with worse hands. I found out that many people will 4bet shove with 99-QQ or AK/AQ/AJ (or a random bluff) if they are pissed from my light 3bets and I obviously call only with QQ+

Moreover, it's easier to stack someone who has TPTK in a bigger 3bet pot when you hit two pair with SC or a set if I 3bet with small PP.

Thanks a lot !

You're kind of right, light 3betting does make people call/shove wider and building pots does make them stack TPTK easier. However you've usually got the weaker hand if you've been raising light, and whilst they're stacking TPTK a lot more you have to as well because you should be making the same adjustment they are (bigger pot compared to the stacks, one pair hands have a lot more value).
Catching the nuts, or any kind of big hand at the same time that they've got a decent pair or better just doesn't happen very often and when it does you're going to be behind your fair share of the time, probably more.
Think more about fold equity than miracle flops.

Don't three bet small pp ever. Just a bit of advice. They want to see a flop and more people the better. I'm also not telling you to limp with them either. First in? Raise. Raise before u ? Call. If playing them oop make sire the villians stack is big enough to pay you off for the times you c/f the flop

Whats wrong with 3betting small pp?

I hate playing them oop, so I either 3bet them in the blinds or fold. I dont really like playing pairs under 77 IP for only the set mining value either so thats a good hand to 3bet.

Also I win 100% of pots where people fold! AND I can cbet the flop if they flat me! You can get in trouble sometimes but for the most part I think its pretty hot.

@KardKlub

What's your advice when someone is 3betting me a lot and does not respect my raises from UTG or UTG+1 and I have opened with a small pp.... Set mining is obviously stupid idea, because he won't give me his stack with 86o if he does not hit the flop hard... and I will have no idea where I am at on the flop ?

Limping is also bad ,so what to do ? Start playing the chicken game and 4bet or shove ? and pray for folds ?

I understand the question and its a good one, but openning small pp utg and folding to 3 bets is okay and no your doing it as a bluff. If he's doing it all the time then you might just need to tighten and not play small pp UTG.

But you can also open pre larger as it makes 3 betting 3x your openning more risky with garbage, and it makes a bigger pot when you have a hand.

The thing is most people aren't good enough to realise 3 betting utg utg+1 looks insainly strong as a bluff so they're probably really doing it with good holdings and your just unlucky every 1 in 6 or 1 in 9 etc in certain games.

But the idea is if your just called you still have a decent hand to set mine and for pp 6+ can become bluff catchers, help block straight draws etc. and level one thinkers don't have you on 33 or 44, so if an A or a K doesn't flop they think they have a free rain on you to bluff a dry flop.

The problem is if your not openning these hands utg then your not going to get paid off as much when you call a 3bet with AA, KK.

peoples biggest leak is c betting too much in 3 bet pots with the lead. Just check jam. If hes aggressive c/c c/c. You should be all in by the turn anyway in a 3 bet pot.

I was really pushing the point to not 3 bet small pp in the blinds. As you finish the betting round as you don't want to play in an inflated pot with a hand with 2 outs.

As for 4 betting these loose villians, Id rather 4 bet with 37o 46o, this way you can easily fold if villian jams as you no you did it for a bluff. People in any stakes are not good enough to 4 bet bluff enough so your 4 bet gets alot of respect. Of course you need to add AA KK AK QQ to your 4 bet range for value but calling 3 bets with AA, KK really does make villian think again about 3 betting you, as he's just not sure if hes wa/wb on the flop when you check it to him.

Not sure if i answered your question as i rabbled on about bollox but i hope this helps.

Set mining OOP is really bad, don't do it.

3bet or fold small PP from the blinds.

did you mean tighter or wider?

also I was wondering why the sizing would be dictated by your VPIP and not your PFR %. just need a little more clarification, but i think i understand the basic concept.

Yeah, you're right. Wider was a typo, I meant tighter and it's PFR not just VPIP since we're betting.

Never 3 bet, and call oop if your not a nit.

set mining in A 3 BET POT oop is a bad idea though

Did you know...

-If you hold an unpaired Ace it has a 16.6% chance it will be the highest card on the flop. You thought it was higher didn't you?

-If you flopped top pair with a Jack, there is a 45% chance you will be beat on the turn or river by a King or Ace

Did you know a Banana Tree is a not a tree is a herb!

I'll stop my silliness... I'll to dig out a document I got sent... Its full of stuff like that...

Not sure what point you're making with the second one. AK, both as over cards, have roughly 24% odds to hit on the turn/river. Having a top pair as a J on the flop is frequently going to be outdrawn because there are so many scare cards (straights/flushes and overcards) but it's going to be very dependent on flop texture and hand ranges.

Your thing about preflop raise sizes is spot on and can be extended to postflop too.

Ever thought about why you always bet 1/2 pot to full pot? Ever consider betting less than half pot? Ever consider betting more than pot? Hopefully everyone isn't in this trap but it just seems most people have some artificial limit where they'll never bet less than half pot and never bet more than full pot and they don't really understand why.

Let me see if I get this right. I do bet less than 1/2 pot sometimes (I very rarely bet 1/2 pot in fact, guess I simply don't like to) to induce bluffs and for value against people that shut down on river after their draws failed.

I don't do it for pot control though, maybe I should I don't know. I always raise big people that try to control the pot-size to give themselves good odds, guess I don't want that happening to me.

More than pot-size : I'm trying to include that into my game lately it will usually mean a shove, for 2 reasons : the calling stations that will call all ins (obv one) and bluffing big pots, when my or the other guy's stack is bigger than pot.

I don't do it so to make it seem like a bluff, because I think my > pot bluffs are +EV (no hard evidence though, just empirical) and therefor value betting > pot size would be -EV. It has to do alot with the level I guess, I'm at 20NL.

Great post btw, I'd like to try and add something of my own :

Did you know...

That trying to learn too many new things, or concepts that are beyond your current skill level will hurt your game and win rate? You should learn a few concepts at a time, surrounding one topic only, go to playing and try to apply them

i will tell u smth that u dont know. KJ off suit is not a good hand. muck this hand if u get it.its a beginners hand coz beginners will tend to overplay this hand putting thousands of dollars in this hand and losing it all. if u ask any pro, they rather be dealt QJ then KJ.

Why would you assume nobody knew that? I think you forgot to say it's a hand worth raising with in MP against a table of passive callers, and blind stealing from the CO imo