Taking people out of the hand pre-flop

I'm having such trouble lately gettig people ( morons !!! ) to fold their hands preflop.

2 very recent examples:

1- 4 limpers, im in the SB with QQ, blinds 50/100. I raise to 550, get 2 callers ( midposition both ), flop comes 337. Pot is around 1900. First one checks, the second one bets 1600, i have 2100 left. He has been playing very loose and will make big bets like this with top pair. I go all-in, he shows 34....

2- Agaian, i got QQ, on the BB, blinds 50/100, mid position raises to 300, button calls, both play a bit loose, so i raise to 1200, first one folds, second one calls instantly, flop comes 725, he bets, i raise all in he calls....A7, then hits his A.

How can i make this morons fold ??? ( normally i would want them calling but lately my luck has been so horrible.. )

And we could argue that im just thinking about the hands i lost and not the ones i've won..well, when you dont play thath often, and most of the loses come from similar scenarios, it's easier to remeber.

I know in the long run my hands will prevail, its just that im in such a horrible streak right now and when i only play 3-4 tourneys a week and 2 out of 3 im losing this way. If It was happening like 1 in 10 i wouldnt mind, but 2 out of 3...

I've found that no matter how much i raise, there's always the moron willing to call or go all in with a semi decent hand, which is fine, but not when variance is not my side....

Exact same things happens to me, mostly because I play freerolls and the players will not laydown their ace rag. If i have AA-JJ i have resorted to the crude measure of just shoving if i am short to midstacked and taking down the blinds. If i got a bigstack I raise to a crazy amount like 8xbb or 10xbb and just hope they fold.

In general you want those people (your bread and butter - not morons) to make weak calls. But in the first hand your pf raise was way small. With four limpers and the bb, plus your raise of $500 and the one caller of 450, the second caller only had to put in 450 to win a 1500 pot. At worst even against AA he is only a 80/20 dog. Bet bigger especially since you will be oop for the rest of the hand. I am raising 800-900 in this spot. With as many chips as are in the middle I am happy to win this pf. You need to raise 3x or 4x + 1bb per limper + another 1 or 2bb since you are oop. As played he was getting pretty good odds.

I agree with eagle jim. You need to be raising more in that spot.

But you probably know that. It seems tough at times but you really need to know that you want those players calling you. I love playing against people who call my big pocket pair with 34. There are times when I lose and that sucks, but in general I'm winning a lot off of them and very happy about it. You will be too.

yup jim and bill are rite on the money, the dude had huge implied odds which totally worked in his favor.

as for the rest, there are always gonna be some people that dont know how to fold no matter what preflop, they have to see a flop, its a sickness...maybe I should start a help group

you can't play scared to play big pocket pairs in multiway pots. Over the long haul QQ is going to make a lot more money off A7 and 43 than the other way around.

Thanks! I have heard about "raise 3x or 4x + 1bb per limper + another 1 or 2bb since you are oop"....but it sinks in so much better for me when it is written. I think I will remember now.

[QUOTEnormally i would want them calling but lately my luck has been so horrible..[/quote]

Just focus on the first part of that sentence. This is exactly what you want.

I hate players like that but all you can do is wait till these fools to make the mistake. Hopefully they will learn their lesson but like others have said we need players like that.

coljung in the first example your pot sized BET before the flop was good(of course i dont know how you were perceived at the table), but after the flop your check was no good...why? Cause after that your opponent made a very huge bet and you didnt know if your QQ were good anymore, so in my opinion you'd should made at least a probe bet to know where your QQ were at that moment and get away CHEAPLY after he reraises you.

was your bet aimed at getting callers or were you trying to get every one to fold at that point? I would have been satisfied with winning the pot right there and then. Push harder! If you were looking for callers you can't be to critical of who calls you then. normally a flop like that though is what you wanted.

The second one is just a fish and you got unlucky, theres no way he should be calling your re-raise with A7, damn, he shouldn't even be calling the first raise!

The first one is a bit iffy, if its 34 suited with a caller ahead (+ the limps in the pot) already its a stackable hand that they're getting reasonable value for, its a shame for you they hit. Being loose maybe you can put him on that hand or a straight/flush draw, but unfortunately with QQ its not easy to lay down! I think already mentioned maybe slightly bigger raise might have ousted villain! And you should be making the continuation bet, someone with middle pp say 8s may think their ahead against Ace/Picture, this might have saved you from losing your stack!

Regards

on the type of game you are playing...buy in. If you are playing a higher buy i ngame or toruney then you won't get those idiot calls when you raise a large amount. When you play lower limit games and smaller buy in toruneys then you will find mor eof the "bad" plays. Its just the nature of the game. But honestly you want these people to call you in my opinion because your odds of doubling up against these fools is higher than not doubling up. Your bad streak will trun around eventually. Keep at it.

Most people that play n freerolls, dont care because they havnt spent any money to get in so they will call with any two cards and sometimes get lucky, at the end of a freeroll around 36 people left i m short stacked and i go all in with pocket kings get called by another shortstack with K6 off and he hits trip sixes it's poker.

Yeah i agree with everyone that I do want this players to call with those hands, its just as i said that im going through a horrible streak and everything seems to go the wrong way for me lately.

I guess im gonna take a holiday break and start fresh in a couple of weeks.

Btw, i checked my hand history for the first hand discussed, and it was like this:

Blinds 40/80, 2 limpers, I was on the button. I raised to 450. Both blinds folded, both limpers called. First one checked the flop , second one made the 1600 bet, i went all in with my remaining 2100.

Now i agree that i should have raised more, although i did want some action from them both given their big range of hands. I guess this was one of those situations where i was just going to lose all my chips no matter what.

Good advise if you are playing with good players, not the morons, I'm sorry bread and butter players, they will call anything. You can't bluff a calling machine. It's not just in the freerolls, all though they are worse. I have to really think about playing re-buys because of all the all-in every hand players. Where do they get all that money to re-buy every hand. I love to see them get knocked out right before the bubble. I know that's mean. So sorry Happy Holidays to all

Since you know there are going to be callers at any price consider holding off on your big bet until the river if you feel you still have the best hand. It's easier to form an emotional attachment to a big investment. In freerolls people will call a big bet just to get into an action hand. The donks will still overvalue top pair if it comes to it.

Are these freerolls or jsut (morons as you say) with money. Are they any 2 cards caller from what you seen before you got your pockets if that the case then you need to adjust you play. If they have you marked as someone who bets top pair hard then they are most likely to call you catch. They don't realized the preflop call was made in bad judgement. And they got a lucky flop, And some people just dont care whether they win or lose. Better luck next time

You got your money in best both times. Suxs you lost the hands but these are the calls that will win big chips for you just unlucky poker variance.

I don't agree with some of you. I think no matter what you bet, there is going to be that one person out there that will call it... and 8 out of 10 hands, that person will hit on the turn or the river... it's just the luck of the cards. I don't think that they are "limping in." They are just weighing their chances and hoping for the best. I do think that people need to learn that no matter if you think you have the best hand pre-flop it doesn't mean you're going to win the hand. You still have to wait and see what those 5 cards are going to be... and if you only have AA or JJ at the turn or river... you need to look and see what the other possible hands could be. Like if you have AA, and there are 3 of the same suit out there... there is a chance that someone has a flush. Another example... if you have AA and a pair comes up on the board... you have to remember that there is a chance that someone might have hit trips. You just have to pay attention to how they bet and act, and stop thinking that you're gonna win because you have a high pair.

Now I dont agree with that. Statistically people miss 70% of flops so how can there then be an 80% chance of hitting the turn or the river?

I would sugggest not raising as much, playing a little looser and not c-etting the flop as much.

The reason is that at low stakes, too many people see too many flops. Your raise is not causing as many hands to fold as it would at higher stakes. A reraise is unlikely to narrow a raisers range.

So the raise isnt getting as much fold equity as it should. So why put more money into the pot than is nessicarry? If people call virtually as many 5 x BB raises as 3 x BB raises, then why raise 5 times (at these stakes) by reducing the preflop bet size you can see amost twice as many flops.

Post flop.. it seems that people are unwilling to fold top pair / any 2 pair so dont raise c-bet as often. Only c-bet very dry flops or if you have a flush / straight draw.

Also remember a pair is a very small hand, infact AA preflop is the highest of the smallest hand!! You are getting too much cash in too early. Whilst you want to win with AA, why put so much cash in with such a small hand. Unless you are short stacked then it makes more sense to limit your betting here.

As harrington says, small hands win small pots yet tend to loose big ones.

I think that is sayng exactly what Harrington was saying.

Also by raising and reraising big hands you are saying to other players 'hey everyone.. I have a high made pair in my hand.. or maybe its AK.. oh yeah and I c-bet big!!!'

Players at this level probably dont realise that but if someone is playing this way then its quite profitable to call them and see a flop, if they hit trips then they are guaranteed to get your stack. And if they dont its an easy fold.

As I said this probably isnt happening right now but eventually it will!!