Table selection

Stu_Ungar

Stu_Ungar

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This is a topic that seems to come up a lot so rather than a lengthy post about what its all about and how to do it, I thought I'd simply make a diagram of what it is we are trying to achieve.

Table selection
 
Poof

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Thanks Stu, lol
I was trying to figure out how to enlarge the last one without warping the words, it wasn't going very well.
 
CerberAcE

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At what level does table selection really become important? I guess it becomes more of a factor the higher the stakes you climb. But at 2NL and 5NL does it rly matter that much?
 
JohnLabut

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I play on bodog and I find table selection to be very important in NL games. Especially in ring cash games. If I'm charting a table for a bit before sitting down, I'll tend to try to sit to the right of the worst player at the table if the seat is available. I like my fish to my left. I also will try to avoid the guy at the table that thinks he's the captain that has to raise every hand by sitting on his left if at all possible. My most successful sessions often depend heavily upon where I sit and the types of players I sit closest to. I'm sitting in a Bodog 7 stud hi lo game right now with a fish on my left that's calling every raise I make. Great to watch him drain down...
 
Stu_Ungar

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I play on Bodog and I find table selection to be very important in NL games. Especially in ring cash games. If I'm charting a table for a bit before sitting down, I'll tend to try to sit to the right of the worst player at the table if the seat is available. I like my fish to my left. I also will try to avoid the guy at the table that thinks he's the captain that has to raise every hand by sitting on his left if at all possible. My most successful sessions often depend heavily upon where I sit and the types of players I sit closest to. I'm sitting in a Bodog 7 stud hi lo game right now with a fish on my left that's calling every raise I make. Great to watch him drain down...

That puts you OOP against the people you want to be IP with. It means you cannot isolate. It means you have less infomation on the flop when you bet. Its basically the opposite of what you want. Its fine if you play very nitty because you always hit the flop with a decent hand, but it also prevents you from stealing. On the button, against weak fish you can isolate and steal with ATC. OOP you cannot. Whilst I say that its fine if you are nitty, what I mean is you wont notice how bad it really is if you are nitty. You are essentially playing fit or fold poker postflop, but the fact that you will open a narrow range just means you fit a lot. The key to progressing as a player is to open a wider range in position.
 
JohnLabut

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I would say that depending on the day, who I'm playing and the level of poker being played, I can adapt as you say to play a less narrow range and get away from my profitable "nitty" play. Tight agressive works in poker rooms in live games. Loose passive seems to present profitable options online. To say that a fish to my right is the only way to isolate is wrong. I don't need the button to steal if my table image is tight.
 
Stu_Ungar

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At what level does table selection really become important? I guess it becomes more of a factor the higher the stakes you climb. But at 2NL and 5NL does it rly matter that much?

Well put it like this, if EP and MP are very loose and you hold QQ, you get 4 or 5 limpers so you either have to raise such a large amount that it folds out all hands you beat or you have to play a multiway pot with QQ which is a hand that plays better in a HU or 3 way pot.

So even though you have position with a big PP the board comes K67 two tone. Ep1 bets and there are 3 callers before you, how good do you now feel about your hand.

If you selected a table with tighter players in EP-MP then you would be less likely to find yourself in this situation.


Lets put the fish in EP and move the tighter players into late position.

Fish 1 and 2 limp, Tight player raises in late position, now you are asking yourself the question, is he repping a big hand, or is he isolating those fish? If he is isolating, do I isolate him by re-raising. If I call are those fish going to then call because they think they have good implied odds, because I dont want to be playing QQ in a multiway pot.

Basically having better players in between you and the fish blocks you from them a lot of the time.

Put your loose fish in the blinds. Now you can value raise, sure, but you cant steal the blinds because every time you raise with ATC, the SB calls and the BB calls because of the price he is getting.

So yes table selection is very important at any level.

Put Durr on a 2NL table and he will cush it. Put Durr on a 2NL table like the one in the diagram and he will crush it for a higher amount.
 
Stu_Ungar

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I would say that depending on the day, who I'm playing and the level of poker being played, I can adapt as you say to play a less narrow range and get away from my profitable "nitty" play. Tight agressive works in poker rooms in live games. Loose passive seems to present profitable options online. To say that a fish to my right is the only way to isolate is wrong. I don't need the button to steal if my table image is tight.


How can you isolate someone who is yet to enter the pot?
 
JohnLabut

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I must not understand what you mean by isolate. When I isolate a player, I'm talking post flop, dictate my play by his presence in a hand.
 
Stu_Ungar

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I must not understand what you mean by isolate. When I isolate a player, I'm talking post flop, dictate my play by his presence in a hand.

Isolate has a specific meaning. It is when we raise in order to get HU with our chosen player. It stops a cascade of callers behind us.

All you are doing is playing a narrow range out of position. You are always disadvantaged because your opponent gets to see what you do before he has to do anything.

I can guarantee that you make more money against fish IP than OOP.

If you have a HUD, just filter the hands you play IP and compare them to those where you raise OOP and get a caller. Everyone's stats show the same thing.
 
moeraj

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It is common for good players to avoid sitting close to other good players.If you keep other good players across table from you they are in early position when you have button and you have a chance to see what they are doing in any given hand and put them on higher starting ranges when they raise. Also any good trap player wants to sit right behind a loose fish. A lag player can trap himself with the continuation bet when you smooth call.If you have loose players behind you they call or re-raise too many of your steal attempts and negate your advantage from the button.
 
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OK, help me here. I am not a real experienced player, and I need a while b4 I can categorize my table. I dont have HUD, so I am there taking notes and after 5-10 hands only begin to get a grip on who I am playing with. and even that goes through re-evaluation constantly. I would just love to set my self up as shown in the diagram above, but have a couple of questions.
how long should I observe a table b4 seating? Should I look 4 a while at different tables, try to find one I like and stay on the WL till my optimal seat is available? How to deal with player coming and going?
It seems to me I am missing something basic here, ok I am a beginner so bear with me, as this is a subject I have a lot of trouble grasping successfully.
 
pokerman27

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Nice thread Stu thanks.

One question: If entering a table for which you have no or very little stats on the players at it do you just sit out and watch a few orbits then move if it doesn't suit or do you watch and decide it's good then join the queue for the table and wait for the seat you want to be come free?
 
Stu_Ungar

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Nice thread Stu thanks.

One question: If entering a table for which you have no or very little stats on the players at it do you just sit out and watch a few orbits then move if it doesn't suit or do you watch and decide it's good then join the queue for the table and wait for the seat you want to be come free?

Just sit down and play, you might be dealt AA on an A59 board!

But if you notice the blinds are too loose, or the fish are in EP and being blocked by decent players who are isolating them before it gets to you, then mark the table as being no good and look to see if you can find a better one.

I generally play 6 tables with another 2 or 3 on the go when Im looking to move from one or two of those 6. That way I have my 6 tables and stats because I have been playing on those tables but the other 2 or 3 have been opened and I'm just getting a feel as to whether or not they are better tables than the 6 I already have, if so I'll close a couple of the original 6.

With 12+ tables, table selection becomes harder because the play is taking all of your time and you don't really get chance to open more tables and play a few orbits.
 
Stu_Ungar

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OK, help me here. I am not a real experienced player, and I need a while b4 I can categorize my table. I dont have HUD, so I am there taking notes and after 5-10 hands only begin to get a grip on who I am playing with. and even that goes through re-evaluation constantly. I would just love to set my self up as shown in the diagram above, but have a couple of questions.
how long should I observe a table b4 seating? Should I look 4 a while at different tables, try to find one I like and stay on the WL till my optimal seat is available? How to deal with player coming and going?
It seems to me I am missing something basic here, ok I am a beginner so bear with me, as this is a subject I have a lot of trouble grasping successfully.

1. Get a HUD asap

2. Just sit down and play, but try and notice quickly if the table is no good, if so find another.

3. Don't wait for seats to come up, there are way too many online tables for you to need to do this, if its no good, move on.
 
JohnLabut

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This brings up a great question. What HUD do you recommend? What options are out there. I"m not new to the game, but have not played a great deal online. 3 years sparingly. Does the HUD you use give you the ability to track player's prior play on that site only?
 
slycbnew

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This brings up a great question. What HUD do you recommend? What options are out there. I"m not new to the game, but have not played a great deal online. 3 years sparingly. Does the HUD you use give you the ability to track player's prior play on that site only?

The two most popular products are PT3 and HEM, you can google them for their websites, and you can use the search function here to find threads about them (there are a ton of threads here on these two products). You can trial them both for free.

As you play hands, the poker site writes Hand Histories (HH's) to your hard drive. PT3 and HEM read the hand histories and store everything about them into a database. So you end up with statistics and details regarding the hands you've played with the other players, based on the HH's that were written to your hard drive as you were playing.
 
Kasanova King

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Great thread. Great reminders too. I always have to end up adjusting, especially when I'm playing 5 or 6 tables and they're at different spots on each table, what a pain. Good heads up, thanks Stu.
 
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That puts you OOP against the people you want to be IP with. It means you cannot isolate. It means you have less infomation on the flop when you bet. Its basically the opposite of what you want. Its fine if you play very nitty because you always hit the flop with a decent hand, but it also prevents you from stealing. On the button, against weak fish you can isolate and steal with ATC. OOP you cannot. Whilst I say that its fine if you are nitty, what I mean is you wont notice how bad it really is if you are nitty. You are essentially playing fit or fold poker postflop, but the fact that you will open a narrow range just means you fit a lot. The key to progressing as a player is to open a wider range in position.

I'm new here, so what's OOP/ATC
 
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