Table Dynamics ???

Before I launch into my tirade about the myth of table dynamics, I need to ask a few questions. These questions are about being able to make good online decisions about whether or not you get a good seat.

1. When you find a good table was it just lucky you did, or do you spend large amounts of time seeking specific tables?

2. Did you spend much time on a waiting list, and if so, were the Table Dynamics still valid when you were offered the seat?

3. If you multi-table, how often do you get what you would consider a good table?

4. Do you use any external software that helps you get a seat at a favorable table? If so, what software is that?

5. Do buy-in levels change your answers to the above questions?

My tirade will go along the lines that online poker seats go fast enough most of the time that one seldom if ever gets an opportunity to actually choose a seat that fits anything close to the ideal seat selection criteria.

I will be curious as to what some of our more serious ringers have to say on this subject.
Not a ringer myself but would think that at the lower buy in levels dj is spot on.

Answers above.

Not a long time, but I get on waiting lists that do not have a ton of regs or obviously have a well-known spewtard. I usually assume that if I don't recognize the name they are a fish. I'm usually right. Also I tend towards the higher avg. pot and avg. vp$ip because I'm more likely to find a huge 60/12-type fish (don't laugh, there were 3 guys with vp$ips higher than 60% last night at one table).

Usually I won't join a list of more than 3 people, but most likely dynamics are still valid.
I don't sit at bad tables, so 100%. Obviously there are some that are better than others but if I have a choice between 18-tabling with 2 bad tables and 16-tabling with all good tables I take the latter even though I'd prefer 18 good tables.
Nope, only my brain, the Stars averages, and my previous knowledge of players.
I'd assume so. The lower you go the less regs there are and the more fish there are. Some fish are better than others and since most fish don't play regularly it'd be almost impossible to pick the worse fish. At like 25-50nl I'd just avoid the few regs (when I was there it was relatively easy to literally not play a single table with the good regs because there were only like 4-5 others and obviously they're not playing all the time).

I disagree with you, and one example is that just the other day there was a 100/70 with over 1k at a 200nl table. The waiting list was huge and just about every reg was sitting or on the waiting list. The fish dumped all 5 stacks and left, but that took a few hours. The best way though imo is just the unknown test. If you haven't heard of them or seen them after playing awhile, they're most likely a fish. It's true the heavy majority of the time, and if it isn't you'll know within 15 minutes at the tables with them.

For 6 max what i normally do is open up lots and lots of the 3-5 player high vpip/high players flop tables and just sit in. Then i stay for a round and see if i have stats on the players and how the table is looking (like sometimes you'll find yourself at a table full of regs and i just leave after one round). I'm looking for at least one fish on the two spots to my right and nits in the two spots to my left OR a fish two spots to my left works as well so i have pos from co/btn, which is more profitable than stealing blinds all day anyways.

So then tables that have a few regs, or nits on my right etc, i just leave and all the while am trying to constantly open up other tables to replace the bad ones...and eventually if all things work out i get 5-6 somewhat decent tables (and then typically have to leave right after).

I never wait on lists partly because 1. it is pointless if you aren't the first on the list or the whole table dynamic will change by the time you get there and 2. i figure the first one to bust is often going to be the fish every1 is trying to get at anyways. And fish are attracted to "empty" tables also so jumping on a 3 person table that is starting up is often ok. Most of the tables with giant fish have like 5+ guys on wait list and you'll never get it, so i'd rather try and luck out by jumping through tables and get into a game with a fish when they are just starting to play before everybody else is able to figure it out and jump on the waitlist.

Bump. Great stuff so far, need more responses.

I'll add here that part of the 'myth' of Table Dynamics IMO, has been that choosing seats, as every book or article I have read so far has stated as important, has never been discussed to much depth here. Reading that advice it sounds painless, but so far I am reading 3 replies here that suggest it is not painless, and not quick.

So more replies please.

PokerCrusher & Poker-Edge both have great table selectors with graphics displays so you don't have to wade through lots of numbers, just look for the most fish & mice. Unfortunately, their free trial only lasts a week...

There's also a table selector on PokerListings.com, but it doesn't really give you more than you see in the lobby -average pot, % that see pot...

I only play micro rings, seldom see the same players twice, so for any real money, I'm sure you get to know the regs and can pick the tables that way.

Personally for me it's not so much seeking out good tables as leaving bad tables. If I'm stuck with a good reg on the right, a shortstack on the left, lack of fish, etc. I'll leave the table. So although it's not always easy to pick which seat, if the seat you get at one table is worse than the other, you can leave the bad one and stay at the good one.

Not positive about the others, but Poker-edge is illegal at least at Pokerstars.

As Zachvac said, both Poker Edge and Poker Crusher are illegal to use on Poker Stars. They have listing for poker software on google as to what you allowed to use with Poker Stars. So be carefull of what you using at this site to play. If you get got you could lose you playing privilages there. I have not found anything for any other sites at this time.

At FTP, I typically open up twice more tables than i want to play and join the waiting lists, then table select when i'm proposed to join the tables as i already have some stats on the players there. I don't really care about table averages, it's more about individual players. Best tables are mixing a couple of good fishes on my right and a few 4/4/inf nits on my left who donate their blinds.

On pokerstars I put myself on waiting lists with 0 or 1 people waiting and high vpip/pot and then reevaluate after one or two rotations.

Overall in both cases i just join more tables than needed and then leave the bad ones.

Then recently I've started using buddy list ahk scripts but i don't have enough experience yet to know if this will improve things.

So far what I am getting is that it seems the best method is to take the seat then determine if you want to stay there. While some selection criteria might be available before you take the seat, what I believe I'm reading is that it isn't enough info to make a sound decision on beforehand.

Incidentally, your replies have taken some of the wind out of my tirade. In my readings it was usually presented as a reasonably quick process to find a better than average seat. What I'm reading here is that impatience was part of my problem. I might spend 2 orbits watching a table, and of course that's insufficient to get a good gauge on things. Its looking like it might take 30 minutes or so to get set up well.

If any of you readers have live game experience, how do you deal with things? In my experience there is usually a waiting list at live tables and you get what they give you. Also for live players, if you're sitting in a seat you don't like, and another player leaves, can you take his seat if you want? Or would the delear or pit boss prevent that?

EDIT ADDED QUESTION

6. Once you get seated they way you believe is good, how long will your session be? I.E. Are you figuring you're gonna be there for an hour? 2?, more?

Until it's not good anymore or until I have to leave (as in real life).

Agree with all the above and add that the table dynamics are by definition "dynamic" that is it is always changing. What was a great table when you sat down may become a bad table over the course of a few orbits and vice versa a bad table may become good (although I think that is rare). I typically join the w/l for 10 or so then select as they become available to get 6 going, then am continually adding as tables become unplayable due to short stacks,fish leaving, people leaving, etc. This is really a part of my game that I am just now becoming somewhat comfortable with as I am getting stats on more and more players.

I usually spend about 20 minutes at the start of my session looking for my marks or players I don't recognize.

Usually no. Generally fish don't like to sit on a waiting list, so the guys on the waiting list probably arent terrible. Obviously if I notice someone on the waiting list I really like to sit with, I'll join it.

100%. Like Zach said before, I don't sit at bad tables.

No

Yes, when I was playing 25NL I didnt really table select since I had an edge on pretty much everyone. The higher you go, the more important table selection becomes.

Until the table isnt good anymore, or I'm done for the day.

Ok so I have a question relating the post, I don't want to steal the discussion or anything, it is simply following the same line of thought, maybe something to add on the 6 questions.

Once you have chosen your table, what is better. Having a fish with good opponents, or having a good read on your opponents without any real fish.

???

Im just wondering is it better to get in a table, not do any more wait to read the table, or take time, chose the table and then simply act right away?

Or maybe take time chose the table and wait to get a read?

Tenbob`s reply is a very valid one and bears repeating.

I am aware that this is a leak in my own game. I will sometimes sit down at a less-than-optimal 100NL table because it is the only one available. Rarely does it occur to me to look for opportunities at the 50NL tables instead.

i personally dont think of table dynamics a lot but now that i think about it i think i should begin to consider it a lot more

Live, game selection is a very different beast. In a casino yo'ure correct, you normally just put your name on a list for whatever game you want to play and you get whatever seat opens up.

Most places will let you move to a different seat if one opens while you're actually in the game though.

So game selection isn't so much about picking the initial table you sit at. Instead, you tend to game select based on the venue (like in Rounders where they had a choice of different juicy private games) or the time of day. You often don't play a casino during the day, for example, because it'll mostly be solid regs in the game. Go on a Friday night on the other hand and you'll likely find an abundance of drunk fish. So it's much the same as has been said above - you make choices whereby you avoid the solid regs and maximise the number of fish.

I don't really have enough experience with online ring games to comment on the other issues (only just learning myself $10NL, single tabling). Even at that level though I'm spending a five or ten minutes scouting out a table that looks OK, seeing if I can find any awful players that I have notes on, etc.

So just by observing whats the best things to look for before sitting down? (online tables)

Obviously we want to make the most money but is there things that just stand out that we all should be looking for?

Site some find useful here, although personally I think it's easier to look manually...

For some reason I always thought I was going to have a hard time with this. Although right now at 10nl almost 25nl I dont know if table selection is a big deal since they are both abundant with fishies lol. Good stuff so far.

No PokerStars though