short 347 hand session yesterday; played several SnGs the day before.

my cash game is +$1.86
really not any notable hands; won a flip w/ KK vs. JJ. . . .but other than that just little gains here and there. . .

current FR 2nl stats 21/18. . . . had a really lousy 2 sessions; down 3.5 BI's;

losing hands IP w/ top 10% starters sush as QQ+/ AJo /s+ to villains oop w/ marginal hands. . .hands that i would never dream of calling a 4x+ bb raise pre-flop. . .(meaning i open IP and raise pre-flop x2 /limper +4-5bb-and lose to a 57o or J6o)

Just so frustrated right now. . . .

I haven't updated my thread in several days now and there has been a specific reason for this:

I have been trying to gather data and process thru filter settings in my software to continue learning and to be able to formulate questions; and discover the many places, positionally, as well as thought processes at the table that are flawed or lacking in basic fundamental value-understanding:

I am at the 5k hand history mark for 2nl (w/ a few hundo hands from 4nl). Which was no easy feat considering my limited options for room selection (thanks d.o.j.) and low traffic volume at sites that do allow USA.

WARNING this is gonna be long:

I am the type of person who gravitates quickly to wanting to be the best i can be at something, and often this means that I will skim through fundementals (unintentionally), thinking I've fully grasped something, and move onto more "advanced" study.
As someone new to online cash (ring) game & at the bottom level (2nl); I believe this has been a solid realization, and hopefully now can go back to more fundamental aspects, albeit truly moving forward.

The following is level specific for 2nl:
I have read in 1 of so many articles this idea of "not playing the same game."
As has been stated prior in this thread it is my realization that truly 90%+ of 2nl players are "braindead fish", who are NOT playing the same game as I am. While I have for the most part a veritable reasoning process for the way I play a specific hand, they (the fish) do not understand what is going on, nor do they have good logic behind their play(s).

Hence why in so many "beating the micros" type articles and books it is clearly prescribed to play ABC, solid, fundemental poker. Over the past several years It is my understanding that online poker has become much more challenging then it was back in '05-'07, and that these braindead fish (BDF) have many very bad pre-concieved ideas about how to play poker due to the cut and paste edited games they see on TV, and home games, which is really been there only source of education. Considering this then, how do I exploit them to the fullest, and then move on to the next level?

Key Concept: Understanding My Own Style & Play:
My current stats over 5k hands are: 21/19/54; 3bet=5.6%; ft3bet=69%;
callcbet/flop=38%; callcbet/turn=74%; cbet/turn=67%;
wonsdwhen raised turn=54%
steat attempt=39% steal succes 33% steal /won SD=49%
steal won w/o sd=85%

(Ok I know thats a lot of stats and there are many more that I could include; and will be happy to do so if requested.)

I am naturally more of LAG type, and have to remind myself constantly to be less so, its this balance between LAG vs. LAP (loose-passive) vs. NIT to =TAG.

My post flop play needs some work! One of the stats that really grabbed my attention was the: won SD when raised turn=54%. . . .ONLY 54%! This goes back to the WA/WB Theorem. Considering the fact that maybe I was sucked out on (rivered) conservatively 10% that would leave 36% that I was WB, this is a big leak.

Next I will post some hand histories specifically for critique on my post flop play:

Exhibit A:
This is a hand I played w/ TPTK, the board was monochrome, but I clearly should have folded the Turn or at least 1/2 potted instead of trying to rep. a suited hand (and potted); at this level they are rarely folding flushes even w/ small rags; the villain in the SB was a LAG, and made this trickier; but i should have folded regardless of villains status, to his river bet.

Everleaf - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3
SB: $1.98
Hero (BB): $2.24
UTG: $2.40
UTG+1: $3.29
MP: $3.29
MP+1: $1.66
CO: $1.66
BTN: $3.43
SB posts SB $0.01, Hero posts BB $0.02
Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero has A♣ K♦
fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, BTN calls $0.02, SB calls $0.01, Hero raises to $0.10, BTN calls $0.08, SB calls $0.08
Flop: ($0.30, 3 players) A♦ 6♦ 5♠
SB checks, Hero bets $0.30, fold, SB calls $0.30
Turn: ($0.90, 2 players) 2♦
SB checks, Hero bets $0.90, SB raises to $1.58, Hero calls $0.68
River: ($4.06, 2 players) 3♥
SB shows 8♦ 3♦ (Flush, Ace High) (Pre 36%, Flop 34%, Turn 84%)
Hero shows A♣ K♦ (One Pair, Aces) (Pre 64%, Flop 66%, Turn 16%)
SB wins $3.86

Exhibit B:
Here is another example of a hand i played terribly (pre/) post flop, it doesn't get much worse than the way I played it! and I may have been on winners tilt or the opposite. . .hence the spewyness. . .

Everleaf - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 7 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3
UTG+1: $1.71
Hero (MP): $2.19
CO: $2.00
BTN: $1.00
SB: $0.99
BB: $4.07
UTG: $2.27
SB posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02, CO posts DB $0.02
Pre Flop: ($0.05) Hero has A♣ T♠
UTG calls $0.02, fold, Hero raises to $0.12, CO calls $0.10, fold, SB raises to $0.52, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.40, CO calls $0.40
Flop: ($1.60, 3 players) 7♣ 9♣ 3♠
SB bets $0.47, Hero calls $0.47, CO calls $0.47
Turn: ($3.01, 3 players) 9♦
Hero checks, CO bets $1.01, Hero calls $1.01
River: ($5.03, 3 players) K♣
Hero shows A♣ T♠ (One Pair, Nines) (Pre 15%, Flop 6%, Turn 8%)
CO shows T♣ 3♣ (Flush, King High) (Pre 24%, Flop 77%, Turn 79%)
SB shows A♠ K♠ (Two Pair, Kings and Nines) (Pre 61%, Flop 17%, Turn 13%)
CO wins $2.87
CO wins $1.92



I have to thank so many of the CC members/ and several that haven't been around lately for their help in understading so much of what I am learning and have learned.
As you can see from these two hands my post flop playing of these was pathetic, these are not coolers but in fact a lack of basic fundemental understanding.

Hand A:
Turn: ($0.90, 2 players) 2♦
SB checks, Hero bets $0.90, SB raises to $1.58, Hero calls $0.68

When the SB checked behind this was tricky, I wanted to rep. a large (or Larger) flush and chase him away w/ potting the turn. . .BIG mistake! When he check/raises this is usually a dead giveaway, at this level, because this is often 1 of only a few plays they know how to make, and one that is sneaky enough to win him a decent 2nl chunk of change.

Hand B:

This is 1 more play that I see at 2nl much too often: the pre-flop all-in:
Calling an all-in pre-flop is almost always wrong; and many experts reccomend even folding top connectors, here are some percentages to help me understand this:

Hero shows A♣ T♠ (One Pair, Nines) (Pre 15%, Flop 6%, Turn 8%)
CO shows T♣ 3♣ (Flush, King High) (Pre 24%, Flop 77%, Turn 79%)
SB shows A♠ K♠ (Two Pair, Kings and Nines) (Pre 61%, Flop 17%, Turn 13%)


I don't think I have ever played w/ 103s on FR even if I was IP; but we are not playing the same game. Since my time is somewhat limited, (and because I want to hop on a few tables) I will pick up again as soon as possible (hopefully tomorrow), and continue this post.
There are several more concerns that desperately need addressing.

The continuation will be much of the same, (as much has still been left out) but I will also raise questions, hand histories, stats, and thoughts about: What is ABC, fundamental 2nl poker? And how, and what am I working to improve? Thanks especially to Tyler and Pascal for inspiring me to dig deeper! I really appreciate it fellas!

This is the 2nd part of the long previous post: Warning this will also be a long Post:

Disclaimer: I know I am horrible but I don't want to be. . .

The more I learn and seem to improve the more I realize how horribly bad at playing cards I really am . . . .
so onward and upward>>>>

Here are my stats once again w/ several new ones added:

My current stats over 5k hands are: 21/19/54; 3bet=5.6%; ft3bet=69%;
callcbet/flop=38%; callcbet/turn=74%; cbet/turn=67%;
wonsdwhen raised turn=54%
steat attempt=39% steal succes 33% steal /won SD=49%
steal won w/o sd=85%

4bet=8.15%; AF=3.17


Position Statistics1.jpg (http://www.cardschat.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40179&d=1317749509)


Here it is definitely a leak that I am playing so many hands in the SB; way out of position, and as such losing a significant amount of $.

It is very bad to be playing OOP like this, I know better than to be playing OOP. and really this is horribly bad!

Thanks again to the chat group crew for your continued willingness to help me out so much in improving! It really is super cool of you guys!

Basic ABC Fundamental Poker for 2NL:
As I currently understand it. . .(right or wrong I am asking for feedback on what is right and what is wrong logic).
I will try to make this as simple and short as possible, and hope to someday look at it and laugh at how noobish it will seem as I am learning and getting better.

Section 1:

So I join a FR table after having scouted for 15+ minutes, and watching some of the table dynamics, and potential opponents (villains).
I play premium hands IP and OOP, w/ a much tighter range OOP especially UTG-UTG+1. In MP I can open up a bit to include smaller suited connectors as well as a wider range of smaller PPs. In LP-CO I can open my range even more. On BTN my range is at its widest.
I am playing w/ other fish, 2nl regs, and occasionally a good 2nl player.
I will encounter these player types LAPS, LAGS, NITS, and maybe a TAG or two.
Against Nitty types/ some Regs. I will be folding most of the time to 3bets or large raises, as it is most likely I am WB.
Against Laps I will be looking to sqeeze, steal, and semi-bluff as opportunites are conducive.
Against Lags I will be looking to play premium hands and pot build early, but not eliminate fold equities, if it is questionable by the turn, I fold.

I will not be chasing draws when it is obvious that I am either WB or villain is pushing back at the turn, and I am still blank. (or if Implied Odds are bad).


to be continued. . .

Playing 6max 2nl. . .will be mixing 2nl/4nl; more updates post haste. . .

Hand A a few posts up looks fine to me, flop isnt monochrome, and i would of played it exactly like you, i dont know why you said he bet on the river because to me it looks like you bet pot on the turn and he raised you all in for his last 90c, this is absolutely fine - dont worry about flushes, and if he is a LAG like you say then you're never ever ever folding here because he has so much more worse hands than flushes in his range. When he raises you to 1.80 you're getting such good odds on your call of his last 90c that folding would be terrible!

Originally Posted by acky100

Hand A a few posts up looks fine to me, flop isnt monochrome, and i would of played it exactly like you, i dont know why you said he bet on the river because to me it looks like you bet pot on the turn and he raised you all in for his last 90c, this is absolutely fine - dont worry about flushes, and if he is a LAG like you say then you're never ever ever folding here because he has so much more worse hands than flushes in his range. When he raises you to 1.80 you're getting such good odds on your call of his last 90c that folding would be terrible!

yah we went thru it on the chat group, actually,
u r deff right about the "river bet", it was a typo meant to write turn re-raise (4bet), was not able to edit b4 it timed out. Have improved and learned more within the last 3 weeks then in the last 5 years

The best thing is that when u've been playing the pokerz for a little while, and seem to be doing "ok"; and think: wow i am a decent player. . .. then a metaphorical door is opened and its all of sudden: the rabbit hole is deeper than ever. . ..going damm i really am a clueless

Originally Posted by kaira123

I am really a new player ...........but its really interesting to play the tricks of casino and won bonuses for each bet.It is really great to know that many new tricks are introduced.its really fun to play casino online.Mermaids Millions Slots is a great choice for a slot game online if ever you're in the lookout for something interesting.

WTF! are u serious? lmao. . . .
I LOVE MERMAIDS!!! They are so fishy and fun, and slimy.
now gtfo.. . .and troll somewhere else. . .

wow it sounds like a really great site, I really might check out the really great new tricks being introduced. And, I really, really, really like mermaids too.

Thanks for the back-up MM!

Been playing only 6m at 4nl/ 2nl(euro) for the last couple weeks, only 12k hands atm but am deff. feeling good about how i am playing (for the most part-'cept when i am just spewing on a 1 too many drinky-drinkerton). . .

Spoiler

Results6m.jpg (http://www.cardschat.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40698&d=1320369819)

stats
Report.csv.pdf (http://www.cardschat.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40699&d=1320371132)

Originally Posted by taaron

Been playing only 6m at 4nl/ 2nl(euro) for the last couple weeks, only 12k hands atm but am deff. feeling good about how i am playing (for the most part-'cept when i am just spewing on a 1 too many drinky-drinkerton). . .

Graph looks nice man, so you switched to only playing 6-max now?

ya only 6m, read a couple good books, and been discussing w/ a bunch of the other 6m guys. plus more table selection options and ppl spew alot more on 6m.

quicky little update: study, study, study!!!

studying>playing: This mean HA, stat leak analysis', and actively pursuing feedback.

I just recently read a very good article about how in the pokerz it can be semi difficult to receive PROPER feedback, its not like an american football or proper soccer game where bad plays are all the more easily distinguishable, we are measuring ptbb/100 and WR's but feedback is harder to come by, or at least can be harder to receive.

As such, due diligence is defintely the correct prescription, and is also why study>playing in my daily routines. At present it is my commitment to accomodate a 70%-30%; study vs. play ratio. . . .Hit the books you slacker!

Originally Posted by taaron

I have to thank so many of the CC members/ and several that haven't been around lately for their help in understading so much of what I am learning and have learned.
As you can see from these two hands my post flop playing of these was pathetic, these are not coolers but in fact a lack of basic fundemental understanding.

Hand A:
Turn: ($0.90, 2 players) 2♦
SB checks, Hero bets $0.90, SB raises to $1.58, Hero calls $0.68

When the SB checked behind this was tricky, I wanted to rep. a large (or Larger) flush and chase him away w/ potting the turn. . .BIG mistake! When he check/raises this is usually a dead giveaway, at this level, because this is often 1 of only a few plays they know how to make, and one that is sneaky enough to win him a decent 2nl chunk of change.

This is an old hand but this is just not right. You have TPTK and you want to turn chase him away on the turn by repping a bigger flush?

If he has a flush, he's is NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER folding EVER. You cannot rep a bigger flush to make him go away because he won't!

I actually thought you played the hand fine because I thought you gave him a range that includes a lot of weaker aces and since he's not folding those he'd be calling those PSBs.

I actually would have bet maybe around .50-.60 cents on the turn and probably just fold to a turn shove.

Wanted to link this in here, concepts are so good.
http://www.cardschat.com/showpost976780-post1.html

Originally Posted by taaron

Wanted to link this in here, concepts are so good.
http://www.cardschat.com/showpost976780-post1.html

yeah he was a top poster. has his own poker forum now.

solid bits of good realizations and leaps forward.
I'm actually doing a good amount more study than i realized and atm closer to 85% study>15%play.
Even though its more fun to play i've actually reached some happy plateau, and i would just rather study instead of play!

This is most likely because I'm a degen. or such. At any rate the last 3 weeks this has been mentally "where I'm at." I'm doing a short 30 minute 4nl session, but studying 2+ hrs. Part of the reason I am studying so much is because i know there is a massive, even copius amount of information that i need to mentally digest and "put together" to then transfer to an actual-pragmatic application in real time at the tables.

I do not doubt at all that eventually my play vs. study time will someday even back out closer to 50/50; but for now i have work to put in, and i doubt i'll regret taking this line.
I'll update a little later today after i've pulled my pt3 data from my other computer, and put it into HM2.

you suck dont lie

Originally Posted by Jurn8

you suck dont lie

lol

Officially shot taking; will update today- post session or tomorrow, as there are alot of good games on today. . .

But for now:
Here is an interesting hand and spot, one that we find ourselves in often:

Everleaf, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.
BB: $1.45 (72.5 bb)
Hero (MP): $2.26 (113 bb)
CO: $2.50 (125 bb)
BTN: $1.88 (94 bb)
SB: $0.69 (34.5 bb)
Preflop: Hero is MP with A K
Hero raises to $0.10, CO raises to $0.18, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.42, CO calls $0.24
Flop: ($0.87) 3 T J (2 players)
Hero bets $0.62, CO calls $0.62
Turn: ($2.11) 2 (2 players)
Hero ??????

he has something. only thing you beat is AQ. check/fold.

c/f, kinda shit board texture which hits his flatting range

Originally Posted by Jurn8

c/f, kinda shit board texture which hits his flatting range

Thanx Jurn,
ya I agree, w/ that;
villain is 64/21/2 (97 hands) ; cbetflop=100% lol. . .f-cbet=60%
There is a part of me that wants to fire the turn, but realistically, turn card bricks me,
my equities vs. several random villain holdings (averaged)=
Pre 71.1% Flop 85.5% Turn 15.9%

in 3bet pots it's cool to half-pot it

flop cbet way too big

Originally Posted by Pascal-lf

flop cbet way too big

this, by +1000.

Originally Posted by bgomez89

in 3bet pots it's cool to half-pot it

ok ya i see that, thanks for bringing that point up^; there is no strain at that point to get it AI, w/ the PF 3bet, it would not be hard to get it AI on later streets if need be.

his flatting my 3bet was so confusing tbh, BUT it did narrow the range i had him on, which is why I wanted to show a bit of extra strength; In hindsight though i like what you say about 1/2 potting.

his flatting range imo given the stats posted above: J8s-JAs/off; PP's 10s+; AQ; AK; as well as a few slightly polar (for calling-flatting 3bets PF) like 109s; Q10s; K10s; he has shown a willigness play a very wide range w/ a VPIP of 64; so a fold, and wait for a better spot looks best here. . .??? thanx all, please correct me if i'm wrong on any of these points of thought process.

from his entire range u beat one hand (AQ), split with one hand (AK) and lose to everything else. if ur going to bet flop then bet way smaller (maybe 35c) but i don't mind c/f

also this is a 4 bet pot not a 3bet pot

Originally Posted by Pascal-lf

from his entire range u beat one hand (AQ), split with one hand (AK) and lose to everything else. if ur going to bet flop then bet way smaller (maybe 35c) but i don't mind c/f

also this is a 4 bet pot not a 3bet pot

ya i see what u r saying; and appreciate it, i think i like c/f best tbh;

its just one of those spots that hitting the gut shot woulda been nice, its a tad hard to lat down pretty hole cards like this, lol.
but w/ that board, I'm really not even too terribly excited by a K on the turn though, theres just too much that can crush here given the 4bet, etc. and percieved range.

move up is going swimmingly. . .like a water ballet princess. . . .shakin' it from the left, then to the right. . .

realized something yesterday about tilt. I never realized what causes me specifically to tilt and then how to deal w/ the root-cause.

i realized that i get pissed or set off center because I know I'm either playing bad poker, or making dumb mistakes. really hits me hard because I know better in most of the spots. It turns into a major self-loathing issue; and puts me even further off.

Its not becuase of getting outplayed, but that I am playing like a noob, that gets me off my A game. Its not losing a big pot either. It so simple and I'm glad i have been able to catch this finally.

The best thing i can think of is to just tighten up, in session, or end my session early and refocus. Taking a day off to go do something different than normal routine; or just calming down and studying.