Struggling at 5NL

I'm a winning player at 5NL, so it's not as though I'm doing anything drastically wrong. However, I have played approximately 40K hands so far this year and am only beating it for 2.75ptBB/100.

I feel as though I have a solid pre-flop game. Vpip/PFR is 18/15.

I see some guys killing it for 5ptBB/100 or better and just wonder what the difference is....or if some of it is just variance. It's just been going very poorly lately.

I see some guys killing and I have enough stats on them to know they play some weird styles....(24/15....17/11).

Maybe I'm making too much of something I can't control (variance), but I want to improve and move up through the stakes and I'm finding it tough to find spots to make more $.

Anyone have a large sample at 5NL and can attest to playing conditions? How they improved specific to that limit? What their winrate was over that sample? Longest BE streaks...etc.

I just don't think beating 5NL for 2.75ptBB/100 is going to cut it moving forward.

A lot of the things that will make you more money at 5nl will cost you money at other stakes.

Personally after a sample of... dunno, 30k or so, I've averaged 28/26 and have started playing 34/30 (both 6max) and feel like I'm killing the game, but my winrate isn't much better than yours. As for breakeven stretches, none, if I could get 100 hands without a 100bb swing in either direction I'd be happy. Had a few major downswings, -4BI a couple of times, -10BI twice (yikes).
Yeah, I do suck that bad at poker.

To be honest, it sounds like you've had a similar run to me (with fewer swings?) and you should be way over rolled for 10nl by now, if that's the case, move up. If you're beating 5nl for a decent winrate you'll most likely beat 10nl too. I don't think you're missing out on developing any fundamental skills at this point, just move up and fix up any leaks as you go. I mean, if you've got a decent pre-flop game then that's about all there is to learn at these stakes since hand reading/metagame etc play a very minimal role and because of that the post flop play is over simplified.

Your winrate also could just be variance. I have no idea on the odds of it, but it's common wisdom that 3PTBB swings from your true winrate aren't uncommon up to 100k hands.

Thanks a lot pokerkid. I kind of know that variance can effect outcomes a lot through such a sample size....but I think I just posted while in a bad mood and a little frustrated.

Right now, my BR stands at $325, so I could move up to 10NL, but to be honest I don't want to rush things and would rather start at 10NL when I hit $400 which is what I originally intended on doing.

Anyway, such is poker and I just need to keep grinding...learning.

Here's some play at 5nl from me and one of my friends.



In general players are paying you off a lot, so you can afford to play more speculative hands with improved implied odds. Also, players do not isolate limpers, instead usually they will limp along as well, and taking lots of cheap flops against inferior competition leads to pretty decent results.

Mase -

Those are some really interesting stats and awesome results...

Such a huge gap between VPIP and such a low PFR....completely contrary to what most instructional sites preaach....although 5NL is a completely different beast.

I must say that your two W$SD numbers being <50% seems kind of bad....I am typically in the 55%-58% range. Bottom line though....your winrates are very very good so that must mean you are doing very well in BIG POTS and just happen to get to showdown a lot in TINY POTS that don't matter as much.


I think more than anything...I'm not giving myself enough opportunities to make $ considering my VPIP is somewhat low (borderline nit).

I'm going to try expanding my range a little and set up some more opportunities....after all, if micro stakes is truly all about making less mistakes than your opponents, than perhaps I am missing out on some opportunities where they are making mistakes.

Thanks again for the response.