A strategy for calling pre-flop re-raises?

#1 7th April 2010, 8:01 PM

Hello people!

Been thinking about this for quite a while now and have been unable to put together a fairly foolproof plan for that "average situation"

I am trying to formulate a strategy for calling a pre-flop re-raise.

I play 9 handed 4NL NLHE and my pre-flop raise is always 16c so the standard re-raise would be to 56c giving me at worst 40c to call in to a 72c pot. Obviously the more people in the pot the better odds I would get but presently I would merely call with any non pocket pair better than JTs. These are maybe 60% of all the hands that I would raise with pre-flop.

To give you an idea, I have different strategy for each position at the table and excluding blind stealing and hands to raise with on the button with just one caller, my range goes down to QJo and KJo raised on the button with max 2 callers. AQo and KQo get folded UTG at a full table and I also fold AKo at UTG+1 if UTG makes a substantial raise. Some may find this last move overly conservative but its so easy to get caught in a squeeze in this situation.

Seeing as when I merely call pre-flop I am giving away the initiative, I then only bet into the raiser OOP post-flop when heads up and board is dry with only one card is in the playing zone, otherwise I am just hoping to hit something half decent... what I am after from you guys is a way to calculate the probabilty of actually hitting something "half decent" with say JTs or the other hands I am willing to call that pre-flop re-raise with so I can put together a plan to go into the flop when the pot is laying me the right odds.

Not much to ask eh!

I feel my pre-flop strategy is near perfect but this is the final peice of the puzzle to solve.

Just to clarify, by a decent flop I mean:

Trips .................................................. 25:1 against?
Top pair ................................................ ???????
Two pair ............................................. 50:1 against?
A flush draw......................................... 8:1 against?
An outside or DBB straight draw.................... ???????
A made flush ......................................112:1 against?
A made straight....................................... ????????
A full house ........................................... ????????
Quads .................................................. .????????
A straight flush ................................... 600,000:1 against? (I have seen this once on party poker)

I understand the last 5 are rare enough to be discounted but what about the chance of making AT LEAST ANY ONE of the first 5 after the flop?

LOL... I use to ALWAYS at least call a re-rasie! I think that not calling with KJo hoping to hit hard on the flop when getting 2:1 odds has saved me a fortune!

I understand this is a big ask from you guys but if someone can atleast point me in the right direction that would be a great help!

Thanks in advance as always!

Frank.

#2 7th April 2010, 10:56 PM

Well....a lot to take in there so I will keep it general, and I'm really not trying to be harsh, but....

You need to stop calling re-raises preflop. Until you have a better grasp of the game, calling with something like JTs is BAD in nearly all situations (you said for an 'average situation' so...). Calling a reraise is going to be bad in just about every situation really. Yes, position blah blah, against a maniac blah blah, etc. But with the way you've spoken above, you just need to concentrate on building your game more.

Now, going over the top of a reraise with AA and KK is another story. These are not calling hands (maybe KK if villain is a tighty) but instead re-reraising hands.

Focus on the dynamics of the game, and more importantly, your opponents and position, and then add some more premium (AQs and TT or better) starting hands to your game.

Sorry to try and explain a 10 hour discussion into about 8 sentences, but there ya are. Calling is bad.

#3 7th April 2010, 11:32 PM

You are misunderstanding pot odds. The problem is you are only buying 3/5ths of a board with that call. The next two cards will cost you much more.

#4 8th April 2010, 8:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vollycat

Well....a lot to take in there so I will keep it general, and I'm really not trying to be harsh, but....

You need to stop calling re-raises preflop. Until you have a better grasp of the game, calling with something like JTs is BAD in nearly all situations (you said for an 'average situation' so...). Calling a reraise is going to be bad in just about every situation really. Yes, position blah blah, against a maniac blah blah, etc. But with the way you've spoken above, you just need to concentrate on building your game more.

Now, going over the top of a reraise with AA and KK is another story. These are not calling hands (maybe KK if villain is a tighty) but instead re-reraising hands.

Focus on the dynamics of the game, and more importantly, your opponents and position, and then add some more premium (AQs and TT or better) starting hands to your game.

Sorry to try and explain a 10 hour discussion into about 8 sentences, but there ya are. Calling is bad.

First off, thanks for your time to reply, it is much appreciated.

I do however feel you are missing the jist of what I was trying to ask.

I know that calling with pretty much any hand is usually bad but what if I am getting 5:1 odds pre-flop, surely you cannot expect me to fold JTs for example then?!

Ambitious as it may sound I am looking for a way to calculate the odds I would need to make that call OOP for each hand bearing in mind what I would like to see after the flop. I mulltitable online at the microstakes against a sea of pretty much unreadable idiots and feel a mathematical approach suits me and the games I play, I do pretty well.

Against one foe with a hefty pre-flop re-raise that JTs is obviously getting mucked but where do I draw the line?

#5 8th April 2010, 10:50 AM

Well, it depends.

There are many, many situations where folding AQs to a reraise is correct.

#6 8th April 2010, 11:35 AM

I am woeful with maths in my head so I use Tournament indicator (I don't play cash but sure it would work) mini view when playing 4 tables, instant hand odds and pot odds on screen.

I don't think you can have a fool proof plan of what to do ahead of the situation.

Example 1: QQ on Button, make standard raise and (33/30) LAG calls...?
Example 2: KK on Button, make standard raise and (16/14) TAG re-raises all in...?

so, I have my HUD to tell me who I am playing and odds calc to let me know what odds I am getting, but I make my choice dependant on situation

#7 8th April 2010, 6:20 PM

you really need to get a feel for your equity vs. various ranges.

there are certain villains against whom you can safely stack off TT on a low board and profitably 4-bet shove AQ pre. There are others against whom you're just going to valuetown yourself in the same spots.

#8 8th April 2010, 9:28 PM

I do see what you're saying...but...

Step out of the math for a minute. I play micro stakes too and there are a lot of "unreadable idiots" there. But you have to remember that most reraise ONLY with a monster. True, some only try to donk you, but most have a hand. Now if you have 10 Jo and get reraised, if he has AKs you are a 2 to 1 dog. This might give you pot odds but remember that if you don't hit the flop you pretty much have to fold. You have just given away a nice chunk of money. If he has AA then you are worse than a 4 to 1 dog. You might think you have pot odds, but how much do you want to chase? Save your money for when you have a good hand. Use this link to figure out your odds:

http://www.cardschat.com/poker-odds-calculator.php

#9 9th April 2010, 12:40 AM

Quote:

I do however feel you are missing the jist of what I was trying to ask.

I know that calling with pretty much any hand is usually bad but what if I am getting 5:1 odds pre-flop, surely you cannot expect me to fold JTs for example then?!

Yes, I am suggesting you fold TJs to a reraise if you are getting 5:1 odds.

You're reply pretty much confirmed everything I said, and what everyone else here is saying. Until you get a grasp of the players you are playing against and a better feel for your game (and more so theirs), playing hands that get easily dominated are going to be very expensive. Just like everyone else is saying, hands even up to AQs or AK can KILL you.

And IMHO, debating starting hands is a complete waste of time 95% of the time. Nearly every situation the words 'it depends' starts out the conversation because until you have the complete picture of the situation, you're answering with ignorance to the situation. Also, more money is won post flop, and many times odds are easier to calculate.

Play premium hands, watch your position, and your opponents. Once you get a feel for the table you can then expand your starting criteria.

Cheers

#10 9th April 2010, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deceitful_Frank

I know that calling with pretty much any hand is usually bad but what if I am getting 5:1 odds pre-flop, surely you cannot expect me to fold JTs for example then?!

Yes, we do. See my first post. You are still misunderstanding the odds.

The problem isn't the 5:1 to see the flop. It's that you will frequently be losing even if the flop hits you, and the turn and river will be much more expensive. Pot odds only matter when you are closing the betting.

#11 9th April 2010, 1:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KyleJRM

Pot odds only matter when you are closing the betting.

Good point...

#12 9th April 2010, 2:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deceitful_Frank

Hello people!

Been thinking about this for quite a while now and have been unable to put together a fairly foolproof plan for that "average situation"

I am trying to formulate a strategy for calling a pre-flop re-raise.

I play 9 handed 4NL NLHE and my pre-flop raise is always 16c so the standard re-raise would be to 56c giving me at worst 40c to call in to a 72c pot. Obviously the more people in the pot the better odds I would get but presently I would merely call with any non pocket pair better than JTs. These are maybe 60% of all the hands that I would raise with pre-flop.

To give you an idea, I have different strategy for each position at the table and excluding blind stealing and hands to raise with on the button with just one caller, my range goes down to QJo and KJo raised on the button with max 2 callers. AQo and KQo get folded UTG at a full table and I also fold AKo at UTG+1 if UTG makes a substantial raise. Some may find this last move overly conservative but its so easy to get caught in a squeeze in this situation.

Seeing as when I merely call pre-flop I am giving away the initiative, I then only bet into the raiser OOP post-flop when heads up and board is dry with only one card is in the playing zone, otherwise I am just hoping to hit something half decent... what I am after from you guys is a way to calculate the probabilty of actually hitting something "half decent" with say JTs or the other hands I am willing to call that pre-flop re-raise with so I can put together a plan to go into the flop when the pot is laying me the right odds.

Not much to ask eh!

I feel my pre-flop strategy is near perfect but this is the final peice of the puzzle to solve.

Just to clarify, by a decent flop I mean:

Trips .................................................. 25:1 against?
Top pair ................................................ ???????
Two pair ............................................. 50:1 against?
A flush draw......................................... 8:1 against?
An outside or DBB straight draw.................... ???????
A made flush ......................................112:1 against?
A made straight....................................... ????????
A full house ........................................... ????????
Quads .................................................. .????????
A straight flush ................................... 600,000:1 against? (I have seen this once on party poker)

I understand the last 5 are rare enough to be discounted but what about the chance of making AT LEAST ANY ONE of the first 5 after the flop?

LOL... I use to ALWAYS at least call a re-rasie! I think that not calling with KJo hoping to hit hard on the flop when getting 2:1 odds has saved me a fortune!

I understand this is a big ask from you guys but if someone can atleast point me in the right direction that would be a great help!

Thanks in advance as always!

Frank.

You have obviously put some time into this, but you are so far off the mark it is ridiculous.

DO NOT CALL 3bets OOP

4bet or Fold.

If you need confirmation of this, filter your DB for 3-bet pots where you call preflop and are not last to act on the flop.

Look at how much money you lose.

The reason you are not 4-betting is your hand is weak.

The reason villian is 3betting is his hand is stronger than yours.

You are therefore OOP in a pot with a lower than normal SPR against an opponent who has a hand that is, on average, stronger than yours, and he gets to see what you do before he has to act.

As much as you think people are 3-betting light, they are noit 3-betting light enough to warrant playing them OOP in a 3-bet pot.

#13 10th April 2010, 7:13 AM

if u know they are bluffing and wants to steal the blinds, a raise is good. if u know u are beaten, then fold it. either way, reading abilities is vital in poker.

#14 10th April 2010, 8:30 AM

Ok guys I think I get it!

You are right, its ridiculous to think the noobie fish are 3-betting light for deception and this is further confounded by the rarity of a re-raise at the levels that I play.

I dont have a particular strategy for 3-betting light but I use gap concept and the advantage of late position. I often re-raise with cards as weak as QJs on the button but I will fold much stronger holdings in early position as I am sick of that squeeze play or whatever its called!

I believe I am 3-betting approx 7% of the time... I guess my apponants are not!

Well for now I am not going to go so far as never calling 3-bets with non pocket pairs OOP but I will tighten up to AKo and AQs... AKs just gets 4-bet shoved 90% the time at the moment with good results.

I put a tight 3-betting range through poker stove and both AKo and AQs look great considering I will usually be getting 2:1 and I know I can outplay the majority of villains after the flop.

All in all I think I have plugged a good hole in my game. Thanks guys for hammering it home.

Now if only I can find a way to COMPLETELY remove ego, arrogance and greed from my game and give me unlimited patience... that and a Herman Millar chair could make me a world class player!

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