"Strategic Fold"

Outside of final table play, and folding to (hopefully) move up a spot with 1 (or more) all-ins... What is the meaning/use/play of a "Strategic fold"??

I heard someone complaining about Ultimatebet not being able to fold - and that he couldn't perform a "strategic fold"...

I would think outside of the above scenario - you'd want to appear as strong as possible - always...

Thoughts?

I see people doing this to make the money if they are decently chipped up. I personally have issues folding a good hand even if it is a "strategic fold" lol. I like to run into people who do fold like this trying to move up as it is easier to steal a few pots from them.


g/l

Someone like Hellmuth does it a lot. Fold and show a relatively good hand to create a weak table image, then watch as you get paid off hugely when you have a very powerful hand.

I can only think about the complaint being that he wants to fold and is the first one to act. His/her options must be to check or bet only and not fold before some makes him. This could allow for someone to see your hand that otherwise you would muck.

I have been known to lay hands down at certain points if I just don't feel comfortable with the way the hand feels.

Last night at Stars I think I pulled one of these off. There were 100 people left and I'm in the money but want more. In the big blind I had QQ. My chips were at about 2200, Blinds were 200/400. Player 3 raises to 800 and players 4 and 5 call. Two of these guys are close to me in chips. I swallowed and layed it down with the knowledge that I could make another 2 money increases. Hand plays all the way through and I would have lost. Because of this I hit a monster 6 mins. later and ended up limping in to 26th place for the finish. I would think that was a strategic lay down.

Some would argue going for first or die trying. You won't know till after the hand is done if it was a good fold or not. I am on your side brianna, that sometimes it is better to lay down a good starting hand just to let others get out of the way. QQ heads up is a monster but in a 4 way pot they can lose some value. Still tough to lay them down.

I bet of the three people that called the two overcards were represented and you would need to hit the set to make it past that hand in the tournament. In a cash game I could not get my chips in the middle fast enough but at that point in a tournament you employed good tournament tatics to make it longer.

Hello All -

Good thoughts from everyone - Not sure 100% I agree Dorkus about "table image" and Hellmuth folding stronger hands to get an image to pay off later (though I could have read your post wrong and/or maybe need to rethink that strategy...)

As to the "No Fold" option not being availble on Ultimatebet - Yes, that is exactly what the guy was complaining about - I too wish I could toss cheap hands where as I just wanted to see the flop - and then bail if nothing developed to keep folks guessing - So, I agree with him about that.... But he did reference "Strategic Fold" - And of course, I've heard it used before (not unlike Ivey doing a "defensive check" holding the nuts?) But I digress....

RE: Brianna - I applaud you for laying down QQ - I just got toasted in the latter rounds on a MTT on poker.com with KK I should have laid down - I'm really liking this site and the internatioinal pool to pick on And really I've done away with Ultimatebet - Just toy around there (UB) whenever I'm SUPER bored and wanna watch miracle runner-runners hit time after time LOL (My next post will be on that topic - can't wait to see the fur fly - Muwahahahaha...) But I was digressing...

Well.... to make a long post longer... After reading that comment on the topic at hand (Strategic Folds for those of you with ADD J/K!) - I then "googled" that phrase and ran accross this long lead article on Bluff Magazine - (Warning - Long Read)

I'll say up front, I've read this mag (hard copy) for about a year now - and can't say I agree with their "final assessment" - In fact, I think THEY think a whole heck of a lot about themselves LOL - But who isn't a BS'er in Poker aye?

Anyway, Here it is - and I can kinda empathize with the dude that catches mid-trips - but - still don't think he was "played like a violin" as they claim - Only Brianna would've bailed out of THIS hand LOL (That's a back-handed compliment BTW!!! after your QQ laydown!!)

Cheers!

(PokerStars - the "strategic fold" part is about 3/4 the way thru - Good read whether you agree with them or not IMHO)

Shifting Gears in No Limit-Hold'em
By: Basil Nester <<<--- Ok - I gave Basil his Credit - so now I don't feel bad LOL) Cowboy

Texas Hold’em Tournament – No Limit
Blinds are $1,000-$2,000 – Antes are $500

Seat 1, Lee (Small Blind) – Chip Count: $78,500
Seat 2, Max (Big Blind) – Chip Count: $46,000
Seat 3, Tom (Button) – Chip Count: $39,500
Pre-Flop

TOM: A K
“This is a premium hand, and the game is shorthanded. I’m a favorite against anything except a pocket pair. I’m going to raise here, hoping to fold everyone and pick up the blinds and antes. If I get a call or a raise, then I still have a good chance of winning the pot.”
RAISE TO $5,000
LEE: K K
“I love my hand! The only hands I fear are pocket Aces or one Ace in the pocket with an Ace on the flop. Besides, I’ve got a big stack, and that gives me firepower. I’m going to re-raise here to knock out the big blind and get me heads up with the button.”
RAISE TO $10,000
MAX: J J
“I love my hand! This is my first big tournament, and I’m at the final table. Wow! This is so cool! My opponents are probably bluffing with bad cards like those pros on television often bluff. But just in case someone is holding a serious hand, I’m only going to call.”
CALL TO $10,000
TOM: “Hmm… That didn’t go as I expected. Both of my opponents are still in the hand, and I’m facing a raise. Oh well. I’ve got a great hand, and it’s a reasonable price to call.”
CALL TO $10,000
POT = $31,500
FLOP: K J 7
LEE: “Top trips! Yes! Now I want to suck in the other players. I hope that I’m up against a big pocket pair or a hand like A-K or K-Q. Let’s see what happens when I make a semistrong bet. Maybe they’ll think that I’m trying to steal with a bluff.”
BET $10,000
MAX: “Trips! Yes! I have a great hand. Now I want to suck in the other players. But wait… Does someone have pocket Kings? Um…probably not. But just in case, let’s bump it up and see what happens. Please, please, please don’t re-raise me, because that might mean someone has pocket Kings. Then I would have a tough decision and I might have to fold.”
RAISE TO $20,000
TOM: “Hmmm… It looks as if I have top pair. But there are a lot of ways I could be losing. Hands that could beat me include pocket Aces, K-K, J-J, or A-J. Lee is a solid player, and I don’t think he’s bluffing here. I’m putting him on pocket Aces or pocket Kings. Of course, Lee could have a hand worse than mine, but there is also Max to consider. Overall, there are too many ways for me to lose, and the price to call here would eat up most of my stack. Something doesn’t feel right. Besides, if I fold now, then Max might be knocked out of the tournament, or Lee could lose a lot of chips. Either way, I’ll move up to second place.”
FOLD
LEE: “I think Max is playing a legitimate hand, maybe pocket Jacks or A-J. Too bad for him, because I’m going to show him how an expert poker player can spank a novice. First I’m going to wait a long time before calling, as if I’m calculating my outs. Then I’m going to call with a bravado that will seem to be masking weakness.”
CALL TO $20,000
POT = $71,500
Turn: 2
LEE: “Perfect. I’ve got my paddle ready for the spanking.”
CHECK
MAX: I thought that Lee might have pocket Kings, but now I don’t think so. Why did he check the turn when a small card hit? He shouldn’t have checked unless a scare card hit the board. Or maybe he would bet as a bluff with a scare card, and check with strong cards as a trap. I don’t know. Suddenly I’m confused. Is he waiting for the river to put me all in? If I show weakness here, maybe he’ll bet the river with an inferior hand. I don’t know what to do. He’s been showing weakness since the flop, but I’m the one sweating bullets. What’s happening here?”
CHECK
POT = $71,500
River: 6
LEE: “This is going to be fun.”
BET $16,000
MAX: “Oh Jeez! I’ve got to go all in to call. Only K-K can beat me. Is Lee holding K-K? He raised before the flop, but he played weakly the rest of the way. Now his bet on the end may be a bluff. On the other hand, he may have slow-played top trips. I’ll feel like an idiot if I throw away trip Jacks. There are so many ways for me to win, and only one way to lose. I’ve got to know.”
CALL ALL IN $16,000
Showdown: $103,500 pot goes to Lee. Max leaves the table.
LEE: “Yes! That’s the way to play championship poker.”
TOM: “My instincts were correct. I’m down, but not out. And I’ve moved up a notch to second place in the competition. Overall, that was a good hand for me.
MAX: “Wow that was a bad beat. I wonder if I could have played that hand better. Hmmmm… Nah, I was perfect. The cards just came the wrong way.”

(COWBOY - This "Analysis is 80% BS IMHO - Max played it pretty well - Maybe should have bet stronger - or "knew" he was beat and bailed!? - I dunno...) Read on....


Analysis: Max made some classic mistakes. His first and most deadly mistake was calling with pocket Jacks in the face of a raise and a call (100% Agree with this). As I mentioned in a previous column, big pairs don’t do well against multiple opponents, especially when those opponents are solid players. In a limit game, pocket Jacks certainly could merit a pre-flop call (or even a re-raise in some cases). But this game is no limit, and Max failed to shift gears. Folding in this situation shouldn’t be automatic, but it needs to be an option. Lee and Tom played Max like a violin. In particular, Tom used a strategic fold to catapult himself into second place.

No, that's what's called being a wimp - stick em all in, triple up, and win the tournament.

LOL! I knew someone would see it that way.

I do this a lot at tournaments. Usually at the final table, I fold hands I usually call with but with two players raising (and eventually go all in) you have to fold unless you have pocket Kings or Aces. Sure, it would be great to win the pot and probably put you as the chip leader, but the odds are not as good as you think they are. If you fold, you move up at least one more place (providing it's not a split pot). I've folded hands like K, Q suited, pocket pairs lower than 8, and Ax. You really can't win a tournament with this kind of stragedy, but chances are you'll place higher than if you call with two all ins on anything lower than pocket Kings or Aces.

I would have laid this hand down too, but the only prevailing reason to do so is because it looks like I would be able to either watch another player get knocked out, or the good player be crippled (which with the way the reasoning was phrased seems to have been the deciding factor). But placing Lee on pocket aces or kings? That's extremely paranoid (and I'm paranoid myself). They're three-handed - having KQ would have more or less warranted the same line of play here.

Something else that Tom should have considered is the fact that he has a backdoor flush draw (as well as a backdoor straight draw). It may not be a big enough deal to sway his decision to call or fold, but it should still be considered. (As a sidenote, in listing hands that could beat him, I presume he meant KJ, not AJ)

I'm also not sure why he necessarily wanted the others to fold when he bet pre-flop. Big Slick is a powerful hand, not the least when you're shorthanded. It can do a lot better than just picking up the blinds and ante.

Anyway, I'm going off-topic a little bit - I presume the idea was to present a case where a fold might be correct for other reasons than necessarily having the worst hand, and that part I agree with fully here. I just feel that the line of reasoning left some stuff out and was particularly paranoid.