Starting hand strength when considering a pre-flop raise

Hey guys,


I am just reviewing my pre-flop strategy and trying to make a few positive tweaks.

I am looking for some opinions as the the strength of some starting hands in relation to others when we are pre-flop and considering raising it up (not facing any raise ahead).

Ok well here is what I have so far, in decending order of strength and therefore value:

AA>KK>QQ>AKs>JJ>TT>AK>AQs>AJs>KQs>ATs>KJs>QJs>KTs> QTs>JTs>J9s>T9s

Before someone says it... I know it "depends" and I am thinking in terms of all things being equal. The hands towards the left could be raised from earlier positions at the table and theose towards the right being weaker holdings

OK...

I am fairly certain that AQ>KQ>AJ>AT>KJ
I'm also pretty sure A9s>A8s>A5s.

I am fairly happy with the order of my first 18 hands but I would like help/opinions as to where and how the next 8 fit in to the aforementioned 18. I guess T9s>KJ so the latter will probably be on the far right?

Hoping this will facilitate division of starting hands in to more profitable EP, MP and LP groups!

For the past year I have arranged my pre-flop holdings in line with mathematical odds of winning if every player goes all-in and stays 'til the river. This is clearly flawed logic as playability of the hand is equally important.

Just to give you an idea of how far off i was (am) I was raising UTG with QTs and mucking ATo and saving it for blind stealing or isolating a single limper when OTB!
I get QT UTG and as its SOOOOOOTED I raise it up and go to the 3Q8 flop OOP against 2 opponents. This scenario occurs a LOT. If I get any action am I ever NOT dominated here?!

Oh and you won't see 99-22 in there as I have a seperate strategy for playing these hands.

Thanks in advance as always,

Frank.

Here is a chart for EV of each hand in terms of big blinds.

http://www.tightpoker.com/poker_hands.html

I find it interesting that 9s are ahead of AQo and KTs is ahead of KQo.

You dont say whether you are playing FR or 6 max. I would deffo be default folding QTs and AT UTG in a FR game as well as 22-66.

The difference between 6max and FR here is crucial as your starting range will be wider in 6max.

Also, I don't think you needed to post the exact same thing two times in two different threads, Starting hand strength when considering a pre-flop raise

Yes I am aware of this. Just not the best at communicating an idea.

I don't like to think in terms of EP, MP and LP though I use these when posting at CC as its what seems to make sense to most.

I prefer to think in terms of positions from the button. Makes it simple to adjust my game on the fly as people leave the full table and it fluctuates from 9-8-7-6 players and back up to 9 again.

As for posting in 2 threads. I did this in the hope that somebody here in "cash games" might actually answer the question that I asked or give me the opinion that I sought but was too late to delete the other thread.

Thanks brank! I will take a look at this. Yes I play 9 handed microstakes and at a full table in an "average situation" I fold 22-88 UTG bringing more PPs in for a raise in later position down to 44 OTB. 22 and 33 I feel are pretty worthless lest for blind stealing

LOL so I can think about slotting AQ and KQ either side of KTs then!

...2 down, 6 to go.

EDIT:

I am not so sure of the use of that link. Looks like its just calculate EV of artificial matchups, not real world playability. It puts QTs 6 places ahead of ATo and I'm pretty sure I'd sooner raise a few limpers with ATo from mid position.

Hell, HU ATo is a 68% favourite though I know this doesn't mean too much when you are playing in a hand with 8 other people.

The hardest thing to do in online cash games is to display Self Control.After losing online every year for seven years I finally discovered the secret to winning.Very few top players would probably agree but here is my formula.In a 9 or 10 handed game every position from UTG to cut off only play AA,KK,QQ,AKS.Then cut off,Button,SB,BB your choice.This way you play 90% in position and 10% out of position.Position is PROFIT.Next if going to play raise the BB amount by 6. Not 3 or 4.Reason why it prevents Bad Beats.Remember Holdem begins on the flop,even unimproved AA is a very vulnerable hand post flop.One pair BEWARE. Not tight but be super,super tight from first 6 positions.OziFigJam

Depending on players on my left, I sometimes will raise with crap like
92 from BTN or low suited connectors from CO. Once in a while, I’ll
even open raise from early position with mediocre stuff. I don’t mind
getting caught bluffing at a small pot as it gets me more action later
on.

I will raise the same amount preflop whether I am raising with AA
or 85 (generally 3.5 to 4BB). Other than the constant raise amount
preflop at the same table, I have no set strategy going in. It depends
on the players at the table.

But then I play at 6 handed tables so it’s easier to mix it up with a
smaller chance of backfiring.

actually i dont think its good to have a fixed strategy. the pros always advice people to mix up their play. that should be your strategy which is to mix up your strategy. this is so that you will be able to bluff or trap others

This is seems WAY too tight...not doubt profitable mass multiltabling but surely your $/hour would be higher playing more hands on lesser tables?

It's extremely tight, and if you're playing this way, you will constantly be bleeding your blinds away and whenever you get into a pot, your opponents will get out of the way. You're planning on playing only 1.7% of hands from 6 or 7 positions at the table....That is leaving out a ton of profitable hands. This strategy just shows how scared you are of someone calling and or how bad your postflop play is.

I have been using this chart and it seems there are significant differences between the two. Can anyone advise to the credibility of a particular chart and backed up by billions of simulations or whatever. Any advice would be appreciated, thanks!

edit: I should have said this is for no-limit cash games, if that makes a difference than limit, I'm not sure....

Looks interesting. I think it should be noted that the better starting hands are not necessarily the ones that win mathematically the most % of times in a computer simulation. I think it also depends of how you play the hand, for instance if you put JTs and KJo each up against 2 randoms KJo would appear to be a stronger hand but when you make TP with KJo a lot of the hands that called your PFR beat you or have you dominated.

Compare with JTs if the board comes J or T,7,2r you can be fairly sure you are ahead.

I personally would rather have JTs than KJo in LP when about to open or isolate a limper.

...now someone far cleverer than I is going to tell me that was all wrong!

Meh, dont put too much thought into hand charts. Instead think of your position and what your range for raising/calling hands might be in certain situations.

of course! but it also helps to know which hands are acvtually better than others and in late position with offerings such as Q9s J9s JTs T9s KJo baby suited aces its not always clear.

That is interesting you mention this as I put in KJo and JTs into Pokerstove and you are correct in that preflop, the KJ is favored even though on both charts JTs is "rated" higher. I am still very new and learning a lot, but I use the charts for at least reference if a starting hand is in the top 50. For instance I am quite surprised that every single Ace X suited is in the top 40 starting hands. Thanks for the input