Starting to beat 2nl, I think I know why! Still want advice however.

Hi there!

I have been playing poker since March. I made a post 4 months ago on this forum about conquering my fear of betting, I was not even half the player I am now, but alas im still average at best for my stake.

Here is the thread i posted before
Knowing when you are "ahead"

It took me 3 more months until I was able to finally plug some of the leaks which were making bleed alot of money (My worst point was -203 dollars). I want to try and help people who are in the same dilemma I was a few months ago. But I also want some advice, because I know i still have big leaks in my game. I wish to crush the stake rather than merely beat it before moving up (Like Blackrain). I'm winning at aprox 5.01bb, play 100bb, and 9 tables. and I have been able to substain it for this month.

My leaks (as far as I know, correct me if Im wrong about any of it)

Top pair
The biggest leak I had was calling 100bb flop or turn donk shoves with top pair top kicker in position. At 2nl when someone does this, it means at least two pair almost every time, fish or not. This may seem obvious but you would be suprised how many 100bb stacks you can lose by such calls. Overrating the value of top pair can get you in big trouble, especially in multi way pots. Just lay it down everytime fights back at you, even the crazys. The only time I may call it is when I have AK and im in position. and the board comes something paired like 5,A,5 I would maybe opt to call a donk shove by a maniac. Otherwise im out unless I have some good read.

Not knowing or thinking about my outs, and playing good draws weakly. Outs are how many hands in the deck that can improve your hand, you should take this into account while building a pot and playing in the hand. You should also consider the likleyhood of stacking off if you do hit the out required and how much you can win. I will post a graph i use while playing below. You would be suprised at the percentages if you don't know them already. And people you think made a bad call, were sometimes ahead on the flop because of the amount of outs they had.

Outs table


Playing In position
Something I really thought I was doing the whole time, but if you were like me, you would be suprised how many times you do it without noticing. Hands like AQ AJ A10, KQ, QJ, they look shiney (especially suited lol) and I would call oop even against tight players betting as high as 16c preflop, and I would get myself into trouble alot. You must really ask yourself if you have been activally trying to do this, have a plan when you call something AQ oop, and think about who you are calling down and what his range is.

Changing game type constantly, and stack size.
This was something I done alot, i switched between 0.80c and 2 dollars and 6max and full ring games constantly. 6 max and full ring are very different games. Stick to one game type and stack size no matter what happens. For me, suffering 1 or 2 bad beats in row would make me change game type or stack size. Also consider the lower the stack size you play, the less hands you should play. Because bigger hands pay off alot less but you will still hit them at the same rate. I never took this into consideration when playing 40bb and bled alot of money.

I never table selected at all, at least I thought i was. Pay attention at who is at your table, if they are All 10/5 nits and the only fish at the table has a stack of 53c and hes got positon on you, leave. I have 9 tables open at any given time, but im always leaving a table and trying to get into a better one with higher stacks and action. Try and get into tables where you have position on fish most hands and the stacks are at least 100bb deep (implying you are playing 100bb stacks)

I have been in tables with 70% players to the flop which I intially thought was good, but was unaware the average stack size was 76cents across all the fish, for example. You dont want to be in a table with stacks this low if you play 100bb. You do want people to call alot, but you want them to pay you off when they do. I could be wrong about this, but I have less success playing against fish with less than 40bb stacks rather than ones with higher than 40bb.

Mark people!
There is alot of players at this stake but its still advisable to mark as many as possible. I mark Reg/nit by red, blue as fish, green as a degen(free money basically) light blue as a bad tight reg (the types who cant lay down top pair) Orange as a good loose agressive and purple if someone is clearly crushing the stake. it helps you understand the table dynamics alot easier, makes multi tabling easier too.

I may be wrong about some of the insights above, I just wanted to contribute some of my thought process before asking for help.

Now im looking for some advice! I will post my pokertracker data for this month. If you need anything else, ask! if you notice any blantant leaks which I assume they probably are, please say! Iam determined to get as good as I possibly can.






Oddly, I have not made any money on the button this month, I have no idea why this is happening and it really concerns me. The - 13 dollars on the blinds also have me very worried, any advice would be great.

Anyways, thanks in advance!

Regards,

I'm quite surprised that you're losing money from the button.

Only a small sample which im sure is why money is being lost on the button.

Your steal percentage is pretty low, and it relates to positional awareness. Open more on the button when you think you can take the blinds, my steal percentage is like 40-45 but i steal like a monkey, but it's still really profitable. Try and get it somewhere around 30 and you'll instantly be helping your win rate.

Yeah what is your ATS? could probably be upped quite a bit

24.14% attempt to steal, may I ask what position is considered a steal attempt, is it just the button as acky mentioned?

Steal = raise in CO,BTN or SB. In 2NL I think stealing isn't as essential as people will pay you off when you have a big hand and also there more likely to call down so you need a stronger starting hand to make stronger hands post flop so you can take it down when they call you down. In 2NL i'd probably steal 20-25% but move up to 35-40% at 10NL where people have a fold button.

2nl vs regs stealing is a goldmine as they never adjust...

Ya, I say try to steal as much as possible from the BU/CO because we will have position on the blinds. Id play a lot tighter from the SB. Its good to learn how to play pots with marginal hands as soon as possible and we al;wyas want to be in position when playing marginal hands. Its cheapest to learn this at 2nl.

Yeah steal like a demon in the cut off and button when it allows, by allows i mean that you have people in the blinds/button who are tight/nitty, if theres two nits to my left and im on the button, im opening ATC a lot of the time. If on the other hand you have some loose calling station fish to your left then you will have to tighten up a bit and play hands that can flop well, cut the Ace rag shit as these just do crap against calling stations i find.

How often are you c-betting?

I disagree with this.

If its folded to me in the SB i'm opening 3x with pretty much ATC vs most villains, i cant remember where i read it but it only needs to work like 50% of the time??? for it to be immediatly profitable.

Ya, I think you have to remember to who this advice is being given......

I try and Cbet the flop whenever I think possible. I have the poker tracker hud setup (Player Stats popup) to see how often they fold to cbets on the flop, turn and river. If they have done it everytime so far, or do it often - say 6/10 times I bet at least 60 percent pot to make them fold if I missed.

I sometimes play with fish who are extremely loose callers oop preflop, but are massive nits postflop (will only play the nuts). It might sound obvious, but are these guys extremely profitable to play with? Should I charge bigger with the intent of making them fold on the flop ?

Different opinions are out there. I'd say up to 25 or 50NL you can open wider in the SB than button, however above these levels people will start calling wider and actually know how to play position. Therefore you'll want to tighten up in SB so you could play like 25% in SB and 35% on the button for example. In 10NL I think it's fine to open ATC vs. a reg and ~30% vs. a fish in sb.

I have actually been abusing some of the extreme nits tonight, they can fold to even as small as 2c cbet if you bet say 8 or 6 cents preflop. If they call, its likley a draw dependant on the board, a re-raise usually means top pair or better obviously. I think there is a place for it, especially if the people to your left are 5/3 types, but of course you need to very careful, some regs think they "out-reg" you with min raises on the flop or blinds when u try and steal. I might start colouring the very exploitable regs who never do that :P

Little update on my graph, had a good night! Made like $8.34 within 932 hands, been accurately putting some regs on draws and overcharging them, along with stacking fish with the nuts. Really liking the progress so far, im so happy haha. Got sucked out with a set of queens. shoved a flop and got a call from a maniac he caught runner runner with A10. Sucks but standard of course :P

You realise that you are winning for almost 12bb/100? move up if you have the roll imo..

Yeah if you have over $100 then just move up to 5nl, its the easiest level imo, never really beat 10nl but I can literally crush 5nl, its honestly too easy there for you to be wasting time at 2nl

5nl is easier than 2nl ? I had that hunch after spectating some games. I see alot of regs with 20 dollar stacks, there must be alot of action going on, am I right ?

Not in my experience. There's not a lot in it, but I certainly wouldn't say that 5nl is softer than 2nl.

2nl has always been a little softer imo....

Graph looks nice and I agree with your leaks. I think TPTK can be overvalued at 2nl but its often hard to find where your at due to strange bet sizes, loose calls, and call downs with middle pair or worse. Sometimes you just wish it happens to you and you see everyone as a fish but een fish get lucky or hit the flop good. I think one of the most important things I am learning about 2nl is definately keeping in control of your emotions. Watch out for tilt, both when your losing and see your stack dwindle while others win a buyin or more while playing every single hand and when your winning and you feel like your on top of the world.

One piece of advice i would give if you feel like your on tilt and keep going card dead is to just stand up and go to another table, preferably one with less people (like 3 or 4). Since you will be playing shorthand, the value of cards like KQ and Ax go way up and AQo are awesome starting hands (great to play and raise with especially when your on tilt). Keep up the good work. Wish my graph is going up at the same pace as yours (mine is positive but the gains are slow).

Nope, any level above the one before is harder - fact. There is no reason why 5nl would be easier than 2nl, there isn't a big difference mind if you can beat 2nl like you are now you can beat 5nl.

From what I read there it sounds like you don't go for the nex buy in when you play? Out of interest why is that? Whenever I play I want to have everyone covered so they can't make a move lightly on me because they know I can take their whole buy-in. Also if you have the stone cold nuts it allows you to be able to get as much value as their stack allows. Also you can play more post flop and you get a chance to try and outplay other deep stacked people.

After Playing abit of 5NL recently it certainly feels easier than 2NL. The ones at 2NL seem scared of calling continuation bets which is pretty annyoing when you have a monster as the only way you can get paid off is to try and induce. If they call they generally have something (obviously there are some fish that show up with nothing). I was finding that the 5NL had more of a concept of how to play poker but seemed to struggle to implement it which I think was there downfall. They were giving my bets way too much respect and I was playing any half good hand and they just weren't adjusting to the play. I was consistently outplaying them post-flop. The traps they set are glaringly obvious and they are awful at setting up the check-raise. For example I had a set but I wasn't sure it was good and they just seemed so confident. I was in poisition and I bet the turn which basically acted as a blocker bet which meant that on the river they'd check and I'd just check back and step right out of the trap. Have to say the play at 5NL felt very soft, maybe even softer than 2NL which i know doesn't seem to follow a logical path. Find a table, abuse and exploit the weak players with any semi-decent cards and then when they finally start adjusting and playing back just tighten up.

Well Iam back, I need some tips again. My win rate has been painfully low for the past few two months. Its sitting at 1.76BB for the last two months. Im putting in at least 30k hands a month.

Im getting the money in good almost everytime. There has be something im tragically doing wrong, I always get it in good in the big pots. But the small to medium sized ones seem to be a really big issue for me and I bleed like crazy, I cannot for the love of god value bet anybody without having to fold because they fight back so aggressively on the turn or river. Ive grown extremely weary of playing top pair, and AK especially, I feel like it bleeds me money, too many other people are destroying this stake, they must have some sort of fundamental poker skill that I'm simply not taking advantage of, or not been made aware of.

I just ain't happy with my winrate, I always try and be the raiser rather than caller, I think im playing in position as much as possible. Is there anything else I might be overlooking ? Anything please!

Regards

Post specific hand histories in the hand analysis section of the forum, perhaps?

Post your stats too...

The 2nl & the 5nl players are fairly passive, but when you move up after that you can expect to get a 3-bet everytime that you try to steal the blinds.
I'm not even going there.

20+bb\100 is completely sustainable at 5nl.

Correct me if you think I am wrong but it sounds like you are being bluffed off your hand sometimes. I have caught a lot of people bluffing at 2NL recently, especially on the river when they have missed their draw or they have something crappy like middle pair that they were hoping would improve. I just try to think carefully about what they might have and whether the size of their bet makes sense in the context of what has already happened in the hand.

Maybe you are putting across the image of a player who will fold to aggression on the turn and river, and your opponents have started to notice.

My numbers mine you are comeing out my ass but 90% of 2nl have no freaking idea what there doing "besides calling any and every thing" they are not noticing that your folding the river to much to try to bluff.
Look at you HUD if the player has a low AGG factor which most 2nl have when they start check raiseing etc. especially on a dry board give your 1 pair or over pair the hell up.

Sorry about that, my stats are below.

Yes absolutely, I'm definitely being bluffed a decent percentage of the time. I just can't tell where I'm at, I try and figure out the opponents range (which is usually very wide) I sometimes just close my eyes and keep calling or usually bet 75% - pot. Table image might not be too much of a concern as the opponents I generally find are usually first timers. I think I just find it very hard to tell when I'm good. Their bet sizing is so odd, they sometimes bet small when they're very strong and bet very big with nothing, and min raise every bet you make, sometimes often which is really irksome. And when my top pair does get cracked by a river two pair I lose faith in its playability. I try not to get deep with top pair, unless it's a 3 bet pot with a fish, then I usually go along with it potting every street.

This is from the 1st of October upto this point today.



Edit = oh and here is positions.

what on earth does that mean lol

At 2NL 6max, some villains notice what I am doing for sure. Regardless of whether they are noticing, there are plenty of bad players making idiot bluffs. I was just wondering whether BBman was folding too easily on later streets in these medium sized pots he mentioned

Your chaseing a ghost that is not there.I bet you $100 that i could beat 2nl 25bb+\100 with 10k+ hands.Playing "CARDS not poker" aka folding when they show agg vs over pair etc.

At 10nl?? Sounds like you've either got a tiny 10nl sample or your stealing against the wrong players, this line is just not applicable at all lol