Let's talk about stacking off preflop for roughly 100 BBs or so.

Obviously we are always looking to get it in pre with AA and we'll be happy getting it in with KK 95% of the time, not so happy about it but getting it in anyway the other 5%.

Depending on the action, I usually get it in with QQ pre if we can, although we're nervous about it.

This is a marked evolution from my days as a FR nitwit, when I'd typically fold QQ to 4-bets.

OK, equity:
Against a normal 4-bet/stack off range of JJ+/AK, AA obviously dominates, with huge dropoffs to KK and QQ:

AA 83.4%
KK 62.6%
QQ 47.3%

With QQ, we are in the unfortunate situation of being in a flip at best in many occasions, but with 47.3% equity against this range, we are often getting the right price to play with money already in the pot.

Now: AKs and AKo. AKs has 42.8% equity against this range, and AKo has 39.8%.

Note that if we can ever include AQ in a 4-bettor's range, AK is now more than 50%, just behind QQ's 51% equity. (this, incidentally, is a huge reason why it's usually never wrong to get it in with AK in tournament play, as we usually don't have anything close to 100 BBs and our opponent's ranges are almost never as tight as JJ+/AK.)

Again, with AK we are usually getting the right price to shove even with only 40%-43% equity.

Fold equity: Of course, all hands have fold equity, depending on how we play them, but with AK our fold equity is great because we often play it all-in in order to see all 5 cards. There are plenty of people who want to play QQ/JJ more cautiously and see a safe flop before stacking off. The advantage AK has is as a semibluff; you will often make better hands fold, while with JJ you are basically never folding out a better hand.

Now, what do we do with JJ?

oops, I had a long 2nd post to this thread but it got zapped, I'll be back later, would like to hear some thoughts on this tho.

It depends

This is a really vague topic given you're talking about stacking in general rather than in a specific spot, UTG vs BTN or BTN vs SB for ex. Are we talking heads-up in a 3bet/4bet war? Was there a raise and 3bet ahead of you?

Other factors include your opponent's playback range vs a 3bet, range for a 3bet, playback range vs a 4bet, 4bet range, your respective positions, your image, game flow, the stakes you're playing at, other players yet to act, etc etc etc.

As a very very general rule I'm usually trying to get all my money in PF with QQ+/AK, but do take other lines like flatting QQ to an UTG raise and playing postflop, flatting KK in LP to induce a squeeze, flatting AA to a 3bet to induce postflop bluffs if I know my opponent folds well to 4bets, flatting AK to induce a call from a mega-fish behind me, etc etc.

JJ-88/AQ are hands that I tend to flat more often to raises when I have position, especially if the raise is from earlier position. OOP I'll flat EP raises with them, but 3bet LP raises with them. If I'm 3betting these hands it's with the intention of stacking, usually.

****, I could go on but I'd write an entire book on the subject. It's way too vague and there's way too many factors to consider to give a general answer.

I will say that in general if someone opens in EP I'm stacking QQ+/AK always, and flatting my other value hands. In LP I open my stacking range to as low as ~99+/AQ. If you're afraid of stacking JJ in an LP reraising war, you're likely underestimating the frequency of bluffs and the width of your opponent's stacking range.

Chuck, I know OP was long and rambling and vague.

Here's a specific example. Only been at this table a few hands, neither UTG nor UTG+1 have gotten too out of line, except for the fact that everyone at the table has been calling wide vs. BTN, who was a huge whale.

$0.25/$0.50 No Limit Holdem
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($148.45)
UTG+1 ($52.25)
CO ($107.45)
BTN ($56.75)
SB ($56.75)
Hero (BB) ($50)

Pre-Flop: ($0.75, 6 players) Hero is BB J♠ J♥
UTG raises to $1.50, UTG+1 raises to $3.50, 3 folds, Hero raises to $9, UTG folds, UTG+1 goes all-in $52.25, Hero goes all-in $41

Basically it also depends how much they're 4-bet bluffing. If they have bluffs in their 4-bet range that sets up a good amount of dead money and all of a sudden stuff like stacking JJ preflop becomes standard. In that example cold 4-betting an UTG raiser with JJ is just going to be bad most of the time. UTG+1 isn't going to be 3-betting that light when UTG opens so knowing UTG has a relatively tight range probably 9% of hands or so and then UTG+1 has an even TIGHTER range you're just not going to get action from any worse hell you're basically turning it into a bluff. If I'm UTG+1 this might be a case where I'd fold AK/QQ just because most people would only do this with KK+ because their ranges are just so strong.

I'm not sure if my play this hand is good or bad, but:

1. I hate to flat with JJ or just about any hand here...maybe pocket pairs under 88 or so hoping to get it multiway for setmining purposes.
2. I want to see how UTG reacts to a raise and reraise. I assume UTG is at least calling the $2 more 100% of the time, especially if I flat.

If UTG calls and or raises and UTG+1 raises, I am pretty much going to dump my hand. With UTG out of the way, I feel I can call this UTG+1 shove.

Why?

His almost min-3bet doesn't look like anything like QQ+. It seems to be saying, "OMG, I have AK, I should 3-bet, but the pot's so small, I'd like to go all-in...uh...make it $3.50."

With UTG folding, I think my equity is pretty good here because I *think* UTG+1's hand is face up and UTG has a lot of Aces in his range.

Or, on the other hand, am I just looking so retarded strong that I am really begging only QQ+ to shove over.

I just feel that OOP I need to stack off lighter here, whereas IP I could flat JJ/QQ here a lot.

Originally Posted by baudib1

Chuck, I know OP was long and rambling and vague.

Here's a specific example. Only been at this table a few hands, neither UTG nor UTG+1 have gotten too out of line, except for the fact that everyone at the table has been calling wide vs. BTN, who was a huge whale.

$0.25/$0.50 No Limit Holdem
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($148.45)
UTG+1 ($52.25)
CO ($107.45)
BTN ($56.75)
SB ($56.75)
Hero (BB) ($50)

Pre-Flop: ($0.75, 6 players) Hero is BB J<font color='black'>♠</font> J<font color='red'>♥</font>
UTG raises to $1.50, UTG+1 raises to $3.50, 3 folds, Hero raises to $9, UTG folds, UTG+1 goes all-in $52.25, Hero goes all-in $41

This is not going to be a profitable stack off given that villains are unknown and have not gotten out of line. Whats the point in playing back here if not to iso a fish? And even if that was the case, it is not going to work very well.

Originally Posted by bubonicplay

In that example cold 4-betting an UTG raiser with JJ is just going to be bad most of the time. UTG+1 isn't going to be 3-betting that light when UTG opens so knowing UTG has a relatively tight range probably 9% of hands or so and then UTG+1 has an even TIGHTER range you're just not going to get action from any worse hell you're basically turning it into a bluff. If I'm UTG+1 this might be a case where I'd fold AK/QQ just because most people would only do this with KK+ because their ranges are just so strong.

This did cross my mind, that I'm overrepresenting my hand and that UTG has to have KK+ to play. Are you suggesting a flat, and if so, are we check-folding all overcard flops? What are we doing on 8-high flops?

This was a weird spot because I wasn't sure if I should turn JJ into 22 or KK. What if our hand is QQ?

FWIW, if UTG+1 had 3-bet to $5-$7 or so, I would have folded pretty quickly.

Just fold the jacks. If you had QQ or AK that makes it a bit tougher and I just sorta flip a coin between 4-bet/calling and folding. If UTG is a semi-loose opener though I guess you can actually flat JJ or any pair here just to set mine since UTG will likely call most hands given good odds. I'd disagree though that a small 3-bet is more likely to be AK if anything it's more likely to be AA. Most randoms if they had JJ/AK here and wanted to 3-bet would make it huge.

Here's one from my live $1/$2 game recently.

Villain is young and pretty aggressive. He definitely has a hand but his 3-/4-betting range is probably 99+/AQ. I've seen him stick half his stack in pre while 3-betting TT. However, FWIW, I have not seen him shove it in pre too many times.

Full table, he raises UTG+1 to $17. Gets one caller in MP. I have JJ on the CO and reraise to $45. (If I just call $17, it is likely we'll get 1-2 more players in from BTN/blinds). We both have been playing a bit and are a bit down from our initial buyins, about $155 each.

He asks how much I have, I show him my chips,thinks a tiny bit, and he announces, "alright, I'm all-in."

I think if he has KK+ he just shoves it in pretty quickly, so snap call? Or is it a snap call cuz I already put in 30% of my stack, and was that a mistake?