SPR Anyone?

Stack to Pot Ratio, discuss?

Still trying to get my hands on PNL, so no input from me

I've read PNL and I use SPR to make commitment decisions and stay out of tricky situations with my TP hands. I have a hard time with adjusting my opening raises to hit target SPRs but I do look at it in every pot that I'm in.

Billy would you care to give us a brief overview of the theory?

Most frequent time I use this is when I have a strong hand and I'm trying to get opponents to commit/all their chips. IOW, pushing the bet in relation to their stack size when I hold the nuts.

Cheers WV, I will need a little time to look at this and digest. I really appreciate your response.

Ask questions Jagsti. Hell I just reread what I wrote and I'm not sure I'd understand it if I didn't write it. 1/2 of PNL is devoted to explaining what I just tried to cram into a few sentences so it may be a bit lacking on details.

Yep I've read it a few times now and it's getting there (it's my age you see). So WV do you stick to this religiously and does it change in anyway for sets, draws etc?

We want higher SPRs for set mining and playing suited connectors because high SPRs mean our implied odds are greater. I use it as a basic guide and will play my TP/OP hands less aggressively with an SPR over my max (playing more for pot control).

I really think that your average regular uses the basics of SPR even if they don't assign it a number or realize it. For instance you know that if you're willing to stack 100+bbs with a TP/OP hand you're giving your opponent great implied odds to play all sorts of hands against you. You know this because you've played enough to know that stacking with any single pair hand against most opponents is not a good idea, assuming 100+ bb stacks and a relatively small PF pot, in other words a high SPR.

It often helps with commitment decision against shorties. Do you call the shorties all-in when your AJ makes TPTK? I make that decision almost solely on SPR. Also I often use SPR to gauge how well a bluff might work against a thinking player (someone who will lay down TP). When you suspect your opponent has a TP hand with an SPR around 13, bluffs do tend to work more often (this is also an expensive way to find out a good max SPR number for a particular opponent should they call).

Using it can get confusing with multiple opponents creating multiple SPRs because of stack sizes and multiple max SPRs because of playing styles, so it really plays better in h2h pots.

SPR also helps you play your hands more correctly against various stack sizes.

for example if you are against a shortstack then top pair is usually allright to get it in vs them for 20bb where as calling for 3bb raise would be wrong with a little pp because the stack to pot raitio would mena that you would be in bad situations with your weak pair. Basically it helps you keep your implied odds in your favour with various hands aswell as making them easier to play.

I regularly use it against regs and against cabbages I find bet chunking 100bb for value is good.

I try to combine SPR with bet chunking to help create hopefully higer EV lines for my hands. for example if I have a set and a SPR of 15 I might say that im going to get 1 in on the flop and 5-8 in on the turn and river by c/c the flop and c/r the turn and then get the rest in on the river if I flop my set.

Its difficult to understand and I still dont really utilize it enough at the tables.

oh

oh and Chuck i recall some hands from a while back where you were getting caught with TPTK type stuff with a 60bb pot on the river with only 60bb behind and villian shoves into you, SPR helps you avoid situations like that.

This thread is useless without step by step idiot proof, numpty, hand examples imo. Please explain a hand were by this process is used. I would be most grateful as you guys should always respect the elderly of this community . Serioulsy I'm grateful for the responses so far It's getting there slowly but surely.

Good point on using SPR to plan how we need to bet our big hands to get all-in without having to overbet the pot. Remember any time your SPR is over 13 you can't get all-in by just betting the pot on each street so you need to have at least 1 street where you get 2 bets in or overbet the pot to get it all in.

Jag, I'll get some HHs tonight and point out how I've used SPR to play the hand.

WV you da man!!!!!

ok, so where do these numbers come from? I understand where the ones with pot commitment come from (because the current pot size is always 1/SPR of your stack) but where does he get the numbers on what hands to stack with? Is it just from Ed Miller's experience or is there a method he used to get those numbers? I do use the pot commitment stuff without explicitly using SPR, I just look at bet sizes and what would enable me to get him all-in on the river without an overbet. I just get really stuck playing against people with strange stack sizes. 50nl players with $30-$35 are tough. Anything under $20 and I'm stacking top pair or an overpair (assuming preflop raise) and $40+ is an easy fold, but it's just that marginal stack size when for example my opponent has $30, it's raised preflop, he calls. The pot's now $4 and effective stacks are $28, so SPR of 7. According to the article that's the threshold for an overpair, and I did end up stacking my KK and running into a set. But when I checked it out for implied odds I was giving him 20:1, thus he did have implied odds if I stack with just an overpair. Similarly I was looking at my 100nl hand I posted last night. Called a 3-bet with suited connectors. The SPR is just over 2, and I was trying to figure out if I had implied odds. I'm not sure of the odds of me flopping trips/2 pair/flush/straight, but if I get to see all 5 cards, know if I'm good, and then either stack him or fold, I win $18.24 every hand. Of course the K87 flops would destroy this number as I would stack and lose there, and of course I wouldn't be able to stack when my 2-pair gets there on the river. Just wondering where the number came from and if it was connected to implied odds at all.

Zach, from the best I remember from PNL the numbers aren't really explained more than 4 is good for TPTK hands because you'd usually be ok stacking with 2 pot sized bets with these hands. The SPR of 7 for overpair hands (actually I think they specify KK/AA only) is a little more nebulous but I think I remember it being derived as 1 pot sized bet and 2 1/2 pot bets (actually 7.5P).

The numbers, of course, don't mean that if you hit your target SPR and get all-in with TP/OP you can't lose, just that you'll be better off stacking rather than folding.

Ok 1st let’s clear up some misconceptions. “Misconceptions?” you say, “What misconceptions?” You know the ones I started by getting things well, sort of right earlier.

PNLs target SPR for TPTK hands is actually:
Tight – 2
Normal (unknown) – 4.5
Loose (bad) – 7

PNLs target SPR for OP hands is actually:
Tight – 4
Normal (unknown) – 6
Loose (bad) – 10 (the only target SPR in double digits for a single pair hand)

As I said previously I have been using 4 for TPTK hands and 7 for OPs, so just wanted to get this straight first. Sorry for the confusion.


I discovered this today when I got the book back out to look for a concrete answer to Zach’s question but it turns out I had that part right earlier, the numbers are derived by this nebulous “you’d be happy to bet pot on the flop and turn and 2/3 pot on the river with an OP of AA (SPR 6) against a normal opponent”.

I’m going to post a few hands now to illustrate how I use SPR to plan my hands even before we see the flop.

Obvious AA example:
Full Tilt Poker Game #6566570691: Table Trust (deep) - $0.10/$0.25 - No Limit Hold'em - 0:39:58 ET - 2008/05/26
Seat 1: milehighpoker ($39.45)
Seat 2: michael0511 ($53.40)
Seat 3: MrsPauls ($33.80)
Seat 4: nsddevil ($25.80)
Seat 5: jabjabknockout ($56.10)
Seat 6: Thermo787 ($49.05)
Seat 7: BceMoe ($25.25)
Seat 8: trancer6 ($44.75)
Seat 9: Dezel ($44.60)
michael0511 posts the small blind of $0.10
MrsPauls posts the big blind of $0.25
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to MrsPauls [Ad Ac]
nsddevil folds
jabjabknockout has 15 seconds left to act
jabjabknockout folds
Thermo787 has 15 seconds left to act
Thermo787 calls $0.25
BceMoe folds
trancer6 has 15 seconds left to act
trancer6 calls $0.25
Dezel calls $0.25
milehighpoker raises to $1.60
michael0511 folds
MrsPauls has 15 seconds left to act
MrsPauls raises to $4
Thermo787 folds
trancer6 folds
Dezel folds
milehighpoker calls $2.40
Preflop pot size = $8.85 Smallest remaining stack (ours) is $29.80 SPR= 3.3 (in the moment I just know that it’s under 4).
With AA and an SPR under 4 we’re committed to this hand. We will get all-in if our opponent is willing by the turn unless the board is extremely scary (something like Ks, Qs, Js and we probably have to fold, otherwise we stack)
*** FLOP *** [4s 5d 8s]
MrsPauls bets $5
milehighpoker raises to $35.45, and is all in
MrsPauls calls $24.80, and is all in
milehighpoker shows [Qh Qc]
MrsPauls shows [Ad Ac]
Uncalled bet of $5.65 returned to milehighpoker
*** TURN *** [4s 5d 8s] 8♣
*** RIVER *** [4s 5d 8s 8c] 7♦
milehighpoker shows two pair, Queens and Eights
MrsPauls shows two pair, Aces and Eights
MrsPauls wins the pot ($65.45) with two pair, Aces and Eights


An AK example that I probably should have tried to take his stack on had I remembered the PNL recommendations for TPTK against a loose opponent (he was something like 51/12/2):
Full Tilt Poker Game #6031883857: Table Fort Apache - $0.10/$0.25 - No Limit Hold'em - 12:34:56 ET - 2008/04/14
Seat 1: MrsPauls ($25.30)
Seat 2: Attosz88 ($35.30)
Seat 3: Sheleg ($16.35)
Seat 4: La-Paul ($20.15), is sitting out
Seat 5: SickCallKenny ($70.35)
Seat 6: Splintinho ($9.65)
Seat 7: m0riZ0riZ0r ($4.30)
Seat 8: randy1184 ($50.25)
Seat 9: metastase333 ($25)
Splintinho posts the small blind of $0.10
m0riZ0riZ0r posts the big blind of $0.25
5 seconds left to act
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to MrsPauls [Ac Kc]
randy1184 folds
MrsPauls raises to $0.75 (Don’t remember why I made a smaller raise here than normal, but it should be noted that my standard raise would have allowed us to achieve our target SPR (4) here. Just a mistake.)
Attosz88 folds
Sheleg folds
SickCallKenny folds
Splintinho calls $0.65
m0riZ0riZ0r folds
Preflop pot = $1.75 Smallest stack (his) = $8.90 SPR = ~5 Using a target SPR of 4 I’m not looking to take his stack here with a single pair although it’s close enough that we’ll not likely fold but with position we should be able to control the pot.
*** FLOP *** [3d As 4c]
m0riZ0riZ0r adds $1
Splintinho bets $1
MrsPauls calls $1
*** TURN *** [3d As 4c] 3♣
Splintinho bets $1.75
MrsPauls calls $1.75
*** RIVER *** [3d As 4c 3c] 9♠
Splintinho checks
MrsPauls checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Splintinho shows [Jh Ad] two pair, Aces and Threes
MrsPauls shows [Ac Kc] two pair, Aces and Threes
MrsPauls wins the pot ($6.90) with two pair, Aces and Threes
I basically become a passive calling station here to avoid a pot bigger than what I was thinking our target SPR should be. Again against this opponent we should have raised along the way or bet the river but this hand does illustrate the principal even if misapplied.

AQ makes pair of Aces deeper stacks
Full Tilt Poker Game #6165948218: Table Charleston - $0.10/$0.25 - No Limit Hold'em - 23:03:43 ET - 2008/04/24
Seat 1: jiggaman20 ($38.15)
Seat 2: GemLeo44 ($33.95)
Seat 3: sebby ($25)
Seat 4: neil24 ($27.55)
Seat 5: MrsPauls ($38.50)
Seat 6: MRH223 ($23.65)
Seat 7: blmf20 ($39.35)
Seat 8: bombchan ($14.95)
Seat 9: Peqoud ($27.70)
MrsPauls posts the small blind of $0.10
MRH223 posts the big blind of $0.25
sebby posts $0.25
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to MrsPauls [Ah Qs]
blmf20 folds
bombchan folds
blmf20 stands up
Peqoud folds
jiggaman20 folds
GemLeo44 calls $0.25
sebby checks
neil24 folds
MrsPauls raises to $1.50
MRH223 folds
GemLeo44 calls $1.25
sebby folds
Preflop pot = $3.5 Smaller remaining stack (his) 32.45 SPR = just over 9. We’re not stacking with TP here. In fact if we think our target SPR is 4 (remember our target is what we want to hit to make the most $$) we know that we should be trying to put about $14 more (target SPR * preflop pot) into this pot should we hit.
*** FLOP *** [6h Ad 5s]
MrsPauls bets $2
GemLeo44 calls $2
*** TURN *** [6h Ad 5s] 8♣
MrsPauls checks
GemLeo44 bets $3
MrsPauls raises to $9 (This might have been the wrong play here because it brings us close to our target but his bet looked so weak)
GemLeo44 calls $6
*** RIVER *** [6h Ad 5s 8c] 9♥
MrsPauls checks
GemLeo44 checks (If he makes a real bet here we fold)
*** SHOW DOWN ***
MrsPauls shows [Ah Qs] a pair of Aces
GemLeo44 shows [Ac 8h] two pair, Aces and Eights
GemLeo44 wins the pot ($24.25) with two pair, Aces and Eights
We lost the pot but managed to stay under our target SPR for the hand and the more we can do that the higher our expected return will be.

Last one. This time we hit top 2 against an opponent who we have this wonderful note on “10P with TP” meaning we’ve seen him put a lot of $$ in with just TP.
Full Tilt Poker Game #6362583233: Table Saber (deep) - $0.10/$0.25 - No Limit Hold'em - 16:41:05 ET - 2008/05/10
Seat 1: MrsPauls ($99.50)
Seat 2: LargeLouster ($60.05)
Seat 3: bigryn33m ($33.15)
Seat 4: MoMoney2305 ($39.30)
Seat 6: Skymax1986 ($25)
Seat 8: miamimad ($34.40)
Seat 9: Tenzar ($50), is sitting out
MoMoney2305 posts the small blind of $0.10
Skymax1986 has 5 seconds left to act
Skymax1986 posts the big blind of $0.25
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to MrsPauls [As Jh]
miamimad calls $0.25
MrsPauls raises to $1.25
LargeLouster folds
bigryn33m folds
MoMoney2305 folds
Skymax1986 folds
miamimad calls $1
Preflop pot = $2.85 Smaller remaining stack (his) = 33.15 SPR = 11.5. We’re not stacking with TP here. We are looking to get in ~ $20 against this opponent, should we hit.
*** FLOP *** [3h 8s Ad]
miamimad bets $3
MrsPauls has 15 seconds left to act
MrsPauls raises to $9.50 (I hate donk betters)
miamimad has 15 seconds left to act
miamimad calls $6.50
*** TURN *** [3h 8s Ad] J♣ (bingo)
mortis4u99 sits down
miamimad has 15 seconds left to act
mortis4u99 adds $17
miamimad bets $13.65
MrsPauls raises to $23.65 (yes, he could have a set but we know he’ll go all the way with TP so we get him all-in with top 2, without the turned J I would have folded here)
Miamimad calls $10.00, and is all in
miamimad shows [Ah Th] (weaker than expected better update the note )
MrsPauls shows [As Jh]
*** RIVER *** [3h 8s Ad Jc] 6♠
miamimad shows a pair of Aces
MrsPauls shows two pair, Aces and Jacks
MrsPauls wins the pot ($66.15) with two pair, Aces and Jacks
miamimad is sitting out

Really hope this helps Jag. Basically I'm using SPR to plan my hands before I see the flop. I know based on SPR my level of commitment and how much more $$ we'd like to get into the pot should we make our TP.

Very nice examples and commentary!

The 2nd hand with AK i think was played badly. Yes your SPR was to high to stack him but I think you can allow some fluctuation on what your ideal SPR for TPTK is based on the texture of the board.

For example if im against a reg with a high SPR on a dry board i may will definately ecercise pot control with my topair but against a donk who stacks middle pair or TPWK then I am looking to get it in. So SPR imo should be applied relative to the texture of the board.

With different board textures you want different SPRs for the same hands.

Yeah, some excellent insights to help with my post-flop play.

Thanks billy and a good topic Jagsti.

Here is a couple of hands that show me swelling the pot p/f and creating a low SPR for my one pair hands. At higer stakes 1 pair may not be worth your stack so folding AK to a raise may be better against some opponents that getting into a large pot where you dont want to commit.

POKERSTARS GAME #17812191236: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.05/$0.10) - 2008/05/31 - 04:09:37 (ET)
Table 'Naos' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: balle60 ($11.20 in chips)
Seat 2: suurik15 ($10.90 in chips)
Seat 3: Jan Hus ($0.80 in chips)
Seat 4: Munchers94 ($10.20 in chips)
Seat 5: PhilipOOOO ($12.10 in chips)
Seat 6: masterhopje ($2.25 in chips)
Jan Hus: posts small blind $0.05
Munchers94: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Munchers94 [Ad Kd]
PhilipOOOO: calls $0.10
masterhopje: folds
balle60: raises $0.40 to $0.50
suurik15: folds
Jan Hus: raises $0.30 to $0.80 and is all-in
Munchers94: raises $1.20 to $2
PhilipOOOO: folds
balle60: calls $1.50
*** FLOP *** [5h 6d Ac]
A SPR of 2 means that I am commited if he bets or he will be commited if i bet the pot and folding would be a mistake after calling 1 pot bet for half his stack.

POKERSTARS GAME #17788207300: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.05/$0.10) - 2008/05/30 - 01:05:50 (ET)
Table 'Pannonia' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: smlnillsml ($5.90 in chips)
Seat 2: Axorg2 ($1.85 in chips)
Seat 3: all in 10jqk ($17.30 in chips)
Seat 4: saminex ($8.80 in chips)
Seat 5: Munchers94 ($9.40 in chips)
Seat 6: jm6877 ($15.45 in chips)
jm6877: posts small blind $0.05
smlnillsml: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Munchers94 [Ks Kh]
Axorg2: folds
all in 10jqk: calls $0.10
saminex: raises $0.30 to $0.40
Munchers94: raises $0.90 to $1.30
jm6877: calls $1.25
smlnillsml: folds
all in 10jqk: folds
saminex: calls $0.90
*** FLOP *** [4s Td 3c]
Here the SPR is 3 with my overpair which means that If im calling one PSB then im commited or if im betting one PSB then im commited and vice versa for my opponent.

^^^Billy would you agree?

What do you do if you don't hit the A on the flop? OOP, you more or less have to fire a c-bet here and that will commit you with Ace high.

that was the idea, i wanted to be commited against his 40 VPIP range.

This is seriously good stuff. My thanks to WV for the time and effort he's put in and to all you guys .

Definitely. Often when the remaining stacks are small compared to the size of the pot (SPR is very low) we often should commit even if we miss the flop, especially against bad players. We do need to watch bloating pots beyond our target SPR because when we do miss and fold we'll lose more than we need to. Example if we can hit our target SPR of 4.5 with AK by calling rather than raising we often should NOT 3bet. Now if we miss and our opponent wants to commit we lose less. If we hit we can still be fairly confident of getting the remaining stacks in.

I also totally agree that I played the AK hand poorly all around and I probably should have found a more appropriate example.