A shove I made that I'm unsure of.

#1 12th August 2011, 7:56 AM

Vpip 30 Pfr 22 His 4bet was 30.77 so auto shove right, I flatted
sb because he was playing like 67/50 and knew the co was going to reraise based on previous play.
Merge - $0.25 NL - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3: http://www.pokertracker.com

UTG: $50.28
CO: $24.15
BTN: $18.04
SB: $75.78
Hero (BB): $25.35

SB posts SB $0.10, Hero posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero has Ks Ac

fold, CO raises to $0.75, fold, SB raises to $1.75, Hero calls $1.50, CO raises to $4.75, SB calls $3.00, Hero raises to $25.35 and is all-in, CO calls $19.40 and is all-in, fold

Flop: ($53.05, 2 players) 5h 4h 5c

Turn: ($53.05, 2 players) 8h

River: ($53.05, 2 players) 8s

#2 12th August 2011, 9:21 AM

first, you want to post threads like that in the Hand Analysis forum, not this one.

then, 30/22 in a short-handed game does not seem like it is a maniac, but with AK you should be happy shoving against all but the nittiest players, right? if he had a pocket pair - oh well, this is why it is called a coin flip: you win some, you lose some.

that said, i would have still 4-bet straight away, but this may be just my preference.

#3 12th August 2011, 10:40 AM

Pretty similar to this hand (http://www.cardschat.com/f50/5-nlhe-6-max-little-bit-200300/). Based on the responses there i'd say 4/bet willing to call a shove. In 50NL the SB raising a CO open still gives both players a massive range. SB knows CO is opening wide and so will 3bet wide. Your well ahead of both ranges.

#4 12th August 2011, 6:51 PM

Yeah I'm not sure of this one at all either. I don't understand what you were wanting to happen here. AKo is a speculative hand and you are behind against any pair. Probably the best you could hope he holds is Ax or Kx. Outside of that you are still probably less than 60% (yes I understand AKo is 65% vs any random hand, but to me a 3bet loses a lot of random).
Could have just as well gone to the roulette table and put it on black.
I'm guessing this was more about playing the player than the cards?

#5 12th August 2011, 7:14 PM

you should 4-bet the first time around to isolate against the retard in the SB.

By time it gets back to you, the pot is already huge so yeah, shove.

#6 12th August 2011, 7:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbbb

Pretty similar to this hand (http://www.cardschat.com/f50/5-nlhe-6-max-little-bit-200300/). Based on the responses there i'd say 4/bet willing to call a shove. In 50NL the SB raising a CO open still gives both players a massive range. SB knows CO is opening wide and so will 3bet wide. Your well ahead of both ranges.

Its not the same.

In that hand opener flats

In this hand opener 4bets

#7 12th August 2011, 9:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu_Ungar

Its not the same.

In that hand opener flats

In this hand opener 4bets

Well it's lucky, then, that I said it's similar and not the same.

Hand 1 in my thread:
CO raises, SB 3-bets
In this hand:
CO raises, SB 3-bets.
Pretty similar so far.

The advice in my hand:

Quote:

4bet/call or 4bet shove first hand

Therefore I concluded the correct line for OP to have taken is to 4bet.

#8 12th August 2011, 11:40 PM

Lol 30% 4bet

#9 13th August 2011, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbbb

Well it's lucky, then, that I said it's similar and not the same.

Its not similar.

Flatting changes the ranges

#10 14th August 2011, 4:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu_Ungar

Its not similar.

Flatting changes the ranges

I think we're confused. I'm talking about the first action hero could have taken. i.e when hero flatted in this hand he should have 4bet. You're talking about what hero should have done at the end of the hand, after CO has a chance to reraise.

Admittedly he is asking about the shove, however I was giving him the thread (which had some interesting points in it) to show he could have played the hand differently to start with, as apposed to calling the SB raise and then shoving later.

#11 14th August 2011, 5:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbbb

I think we're confused. I'm talking about the first action hero could have taken. i.e when hero flatted in this hand he should have 4bet. You're talking about what hero should have done at the end of the hand, after CO has a chance to reraise.

As people rarely 4bet bluff at these stakes, when the opener 4bets, his range is stronger than when he flats? Agreed?

So if we know that CO range beats us, there isnt enough money to justify shoving as we already know that we have zero fold equity.

So the 2 hands are completely different.

#12 14th August 2011, 5:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu_Ungar

As people rarely 4bet bluff at these stakes, when the opener 4bets, his range is stronger than when he flats? Agreed?

So if we know that CO range beats us, there isnt enough money to justify shoving as we already know that we have zero fold equity.

So the 2 hands are completely different.

Ok I understand against CO's 4bet range we're crushed, however do you not think hero could have 4bet originally after SB 3bets? Or is flatting ok?

#13 14th August 2011, 5:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbbb

Ok I understand against CO's 4bet range we're crushed, however do you not think hero could have 4bet originally after SB 3bets? Or is flatting ok?

What we need to know is "does SB squeeze?"

Does he 3bet a lot?

People dont squeeze as much as you think so if there is no read that shows SB 3betting a lot then assume he dosent squeeze.

If he dosent squeeze then you are flipping against the bottom of his range, so its a fold.

If he doses squeeze and CO 4bets, we are crushed by CO 4bet range and its a definate fold.

If SB squeezes and co folds then its a shove for value.

#14 16th August 2011, 4:20 AM

how would we know to shove if we don't know if CO will fold(since we're in the bb) stu?

#15 16th August 2011, 5:26 AM

I just love your header and bustier, did not read the hand.

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