Should I have let a free card come off?

Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($5.20)
UTG ($6.03)
UTG+1 ($6.32)
MP1 ($6.31)
MP2 ($10)
CO ($4.71)
Hero (Button) ($11.82)
SB ($6.88)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, Q
1 fold, UTG+1 bets $0.15, 2 folds, CO calls $0.15, Hero raises to $0.50, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.35, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.22) Q, 3, A (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $1.15, 1 fold

Total pot: $1.22 | Rake: $0.05

Results below:
Hero didn't show A, Q.
Outcome: Hero won $1.17

Bit of a wierd one this. I know that betting with the best hand is the right thing to do and I do pretty much 100% of the time but looking back at this hand I can't but think I missed out on extracting extra value.

I guess with top 2-pair I am can draw to a full house though not as easily as he can make his flush. I am fairly sure I had the best hand after the flop and if he was on a flush draw wouldn't he have bet out on a semi bluff. I suppose he could be slow playing a set of threes but this is surely unlikely!

What do you guys think and what would you have done in position after the flop?

Frank.

EDIT:

Just one extra thing in case someone suggestes a smaller bet. I believe the bet size to be pretty much irrelivent. All my c-bets are either 50%pot if I miss and decide to bet or 100%pot if I connect and decide to bet... plus 1/4 or the time (if my first card is a heart) I do the opposite. This gives the impression of pretty much random bets (7:5 ratio) while at the same time betting an amount that gets people wondering and confused (not 2/3-3/4 like everyone does) AND means that my average C-bet when I miss is 62.5%pot, and when I hit its 87.5%pot. I like it!

Im not an expert but I would say you played it fine.

2 pair although good is not what I would class an unbeatable monster and slow playing or letting another card come cheap or free is asking for trouble on a draw heavy board, Straights and flushes.

If the next card is a 10, J, K or club would you feel so confedent about 2 pair??? The next card if given free or cheap could also give the other person a set.

I do not like slow playing many hands esp not 2 pair,
If you flopped a set on a dry board or a FH then maybe against the right person slow playing is ok.

NO

Think of it like this

you hold and ace and a queen

There is also an ace and a queen on the board.

This dramatically reduces the number of hands he could have that contain an ace of a queen.

Lets say he held 99 or TJ he wont make more than one bet with the ace and queen in the flop, even if you check.

If the number of paired hands have been reduced then his range contains a higher than normal % of draws. Draws need to see cards and will often pay to do so. So checking really doesnt gain you much, you let all the draws draw for free and you dont sucker a hand like 99 into making more than one small bet.

If he dosent have a draw then he folds thats just what happens.

Hmmm... yes I see your point but looking at the hand again, if he IS drawing to a flush (likely worst case scenario) he has only 7 good outs.
An Ac or Qc fills me up and if he makes the flush its likely to be payday for me!

A 1/7 chance of a scare card doesn't seem THAT bad to me!

Any more thoughts?

EDIT:

This was written before Stu's reply....

Note to your edit this should be c-bet with a betsize of around 75%.

It is a drawy board, you are charging draws not looking to get value from small pocket pairs.

50% is too small a bet because if his draw misses you wont get call on the river so you need to get as much value in as possible on the flop and turn.

On the river you could call if he bluffs but he is unlikely to bluff a missed draw on this board as you are repping a big ace and are unlikely to fold.

At 5NL I would be 3betting this preflop.

You have position, you gain info on his hand strength and he is very likely to be calling with hands like AJ and AT KQ QJ QTs as he probably opens too wide UTG.

The turn is unlikely to be the Ac as its already on the flop

your thought process is not really where it should be i think. That we are right now a favorite is almost always true (villain could possibly have 33). forget about math and odds for a sec. We are 70% favorite certainly. Who is the villain in the hand, how many hands have you played with him? How does he view you? Could we safely assume that villain folds everytime we cbet this flop? Does he bet against our Weakness? when you dont know villain and stumble around blindly thats when you make standard plays because everyone is the same to you but if you notice who villain is and how he plays thats the only way you can start extracting value

I really dont see where you are going with a statement like that.

You are in position, villian has checked.. if he intends to play back at you then now is the time to do it with a C/R

By checking behind all you do is let a free card come, its never going to make him a higher pair than the board already gives so we cant really think that checking lets him bluff into us on the turn.

He may value bet a pair like 99 on the turn, but as soon as you call he shuts down and if you raise his bet he gives up.

I just dont see what you are trying to say. There really isnt any way to outplay someone by checking this flop because it wont cause them to make huge turn and river mistakes.

That said if you c-bet and he has AK , he may be checking with the intention to CRAI but checking back this flop with top 2 pair on a drawy board is terrible.

EDIT: just to clarify what I am saying. Despite your villain's tendencies etc you still always bet here. The statement is certainly true in general, but in this particular situation we dont really need to consider anything other than we hold top 2 pair, there is a FD and a SD on and villian is unlikely to have anything other than a draw that will continue, but still we bet 100% of te time against 100% of villains in this situation.

So he makes a value bet with 99 and than shuts down after I call... how is this bad? Is that not more money in my BR or am I missing something else?

Ok so its a drawy board but I still also have outs do I not? Seeing as I am almost certainly in the lead now wouldn't drawing to a full house be +EV in the long run?

Thats if he has 99

Most of his range are draws.

It isnt +ev

All you do is give yourself the chance to win a slightly bigger pot and lose a very much bigger pot.

Its 5nl, people play their cards not each other. Getting tricky with two pair is only going to get a person in trouble.

I say the whole pot sized bet thing is a bad move, 2/3s pot on the flop. Also I think the preflop raise to .50 was a little too big, but I like to respect UTG/UTG+1 raises, as the usual range is two face cards or a pocket pair, both of which are not very behind AQ preflop. Why dedicate an extra 35 cents without even a pair preflop? I'm probably just calling with position preflop.

Personally I like the 3bet but only because I'm assuming that at 5NL people are opening UTG 15%+ and not folding to 3bets all that much.

If that isn't true then I prefer flatting, But I just feel that they would call with a lot of funky hands.

When players start opening UTG less than 10% I def prefer flatting.

When players fold more than 60% to 3bets again I def prefer flatting.

Basically what Im thinking is that the 3bet builds a pot preflop rather than folds out tonns of hands that we beat.

If I hit TPTK I want to play for stacks because I think AJ and AT will come along etc etc.

As people tighten up I wouldnt play these hands so aggressively.

The board is too connected to allow a free card to beat you I like your play here.

I like betting or checking the flop here. Checking because you have both the ace and the queen or betting to get value from draws and weak aces. I would probably bet but only about 70% of the pot.

My bet here is 87.5% of the pot... 50% if my first card is a heart, 100% other times.

I agree with whats said above.

Betting this flop is correct as there are many cards you do not wanna see hit the turn.

I like the way Stu looked at it and described it, it's almost the perfect explanation on what to do there and why.

That sounds really random, standardizing your bet to 2.5X-3XBB and 2/3s pot on the flop will be just as confusing if you're raising the same amount for T9s as for AA.

True, but firstly, everyone bets 2/3-3/4 as a C-bet and I do get the impression that a half or full bet is more confusing... if I see it it always gets ME thinking!

I think that confused players are more likely to make a mistake.

Secondly I believe it to be advantageous to make C-bets smaller whem we miss as we need not be successful as often to show a long term profit, and larger when we hit to get paid off better with our strong hands.

In an ideal world I would 1/2 the pot ALWAYS when I missed and the full pot ALWAYS when I hit the flop. This would obviously become very predictable very quickly so I believe randomising bets in the way I discribed achieves this end.

It appears to be working very well. I am sure I get more folds with these new bet sizes and in the longrun I am putting 25% more into the pot when I hit than when I miss.

Look I know you are trying to randomise your play to be deceptive etc tec, but this is 5NL, you dont need to. Just bet bigger when you hit and smaller when you miss.

I have been struggling to think of a way that best explains what trying to play tricky at these levels is like, I mean how its viewed by people once they grasp why its not needed.


I think this clip best sums it up.

YouTube- Indiana Jones and the shoot of death

Is this really a typical strategy? I'm a tourney player, not a cash player, but I would have thought that would get you in trouble pretty quickly.

Since I'll be in Vegas in July, I was thinking of playing some cash games online before then, since that might be what I end up doing in the casino (due to time constraints). But I'm clearly not up to speed on strategy at low limit games.

By the way, to the OP, I agree with your post-flop bet. Checking there is only going to make it tough on yourself on a third of the possible turn cards.

At 5NL being deceptive is pointless

Ok forgive me, I know a lot of you guys are pros and granted, I have only been playing poker for 9 months and am making just 4-5BB/100 hands at 5NL but I don't intend to be here forever.

I'll be moving up to 10NL very soon and after a few months 25NL will be within grasp... BR allowing. I am always looking for ways to improve my game, to plug leaks however small. I believe that at some point I will NEED to randomize my bets and even out my ranges (be the raghead with the big sword!) where is the harm in doing it now?

I am SURE it has made a difference to my game. Now a bad session at 5NL is a break even session. It was not before.

Varying my bets is not being tricky, I STILL bet! I rarely slow-play or check-raise, never limp-re-raise or min-raise with AA and KK and have stopped doing a bunch of things months ago that my apponants still do.

I appreciate the advice but come on guys, I am playing at 5NL but want to learn a 10 or 25NL standard game. I want to improve at a higher rate than the idiots I choose to play. Please quit being so negative!

I was going to put my 2 cents in here.. but Stu pretty much said it all, haha.

The only thing different I would have done was bet a little less post flop. About 75c - $1.. in that range.. especially with that flush draw out there. If you didn't bet and he checked.. then you are giving him a chance to catch up.