Short stack all in. Do we raise to iso or flat? A Discussion

Hey guys,

Forsakenone and I were having a conversation on this hand:


Entraction - €0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

CO: €2.01
BTN: €10.00
SB: €5.94
BB: €18.05
UTG: €1.88
Hero (MP): €12.18

SB posts SB €0.05, BB posts BB €0.10

Pre Flop: (€0.15) Hero has 8♦8♠

UTG raises to €1.88 and is all-in, Hero calls €1.88,

UTG: 55/23 over 40+ hands
Hero is: 27/23 over 44 hands
BTN:27/17 26 hands
SB: 56/4 27 hands
BB:20/3 44 hands

Ok when I saw this hand immediately I thought we should raise to iso. However forsakenone was saying his flat call had merit(if he raised he'd be pot committed if someone called or 3bet).

My biggest point was that flat calling is dangerous here because someone behind us(lets get rid of the stats for a moment) could 3bet shove light on us and we'd be forced to fold the best hand(if it's one of the bigger stacks at the table). I know that usually if I see someone just flat a shorty's all in like Hero did, I give them a range of something like:

77+,ATs+,KQs,ATo+,KQo

I almost feel like I can eliminate AA/KK/QQ because those will, most of the time, 3bet because LDO they have QQ+, I'll still leave it in there though. For the most part, if they have a range like that and they seem sort of competent I feel that if we shove light enough to be sort of ahead of the short stacks all in it'll be profitable given the dead money on table.

I put the short stack on 66+,A3s+,K8s+,Q8s+,J9s+, T9s,A8o+, Kto+,QTo+,JTo

I was telling forsakenone that our 3bet shove range in a situation like this(if we're on the btn or in the sb/bb) could be something like:

55+,ATs+,KQs,QJs,JTs,87s,76s,ATo+,KQo.

Not only do I think that we can get the flat caller(hero) to fold almost all the time but we'll also probably take down the pot a good amount since our range is ahead of the shorty.

If we do get called by Hero, i think we can put him on something like JJ+ AKs/AKo, we have about 34% equity with our range. I dont know if that's good enough given all the money in the pot though, maybe someone else can help.

So after telling him about how we could get shoved light on and how we'd have to fold our most of our range(we're Hero now) if we flat, I told him that we should raise to isolate. Forsakenone made a pretty good point in that if we raise we'd be pot committed.

However, I think that while we may be pot committed if we raise, most of the time everyone is going to fold and if someone does 4bet shove we're probably beat and could just punch-wall/fold. I also brought up the idea of just min-raising the short stack. Min raising, to me, is really polarized so if I were in a later position id fold out most of my cards other than the premium stuff.

So here are the questions:

From Hero's persepective:

1) We have 88 here, do we flat or raise and why?

2) If you said flat, what if someone raises/shoves on us?

3) If you said raise, how much?

From a later position's perpective:

1) If we see a short stack go all in and someone flats, should we shove with a
wide range given the money in the pot? If so, what range?

2) What range do you put the flat caller on?


Your insights would be great. Both forsakenone and I don't really know which is better in this situation or what we should do if we're in a later position and see this occur.

This is an easy fold for me here. I give him a little more credit as the raise is coming from UTG. We are UTG +1 so their is lots of action that could happen behind us forcing us to fold. We have no implied odds to flop a set as raiser is all in. We may will be ahead of his pushing raise but out position and the potential action behind us seems to indicate a fold here...LizaBuv

you're making a mistake if you're folding here imo

Liza makes a valid point. These spots are the one's that can become big leaks in our game. Yes they are short stacked but its a coin flip and we have no edge.

But raising is the better play out of the two, as in the long run you'll have less difficult choices to make on the flop if called by others as they will hopefully fold out alot of playable hands that are getting good odds to call and have position on us.

I dont have a problem folding if im raised. If someone is good enough to re raise me all in light then fair play to them. I won't loose any sleep as the times this will happen i would have lost alot of money to better hands along the way.

raise to $4.50

I'd always be folding here. You are nearly always flipping at best and I think you can wait better opportunities to get the money in.

I think it's a fold from your position. You're flipping with UTG and you're in a shitty spot if someone behinds decides to raise / wakes up with a real hand.

could you guys also give input on this:


From a later position's perpective:

1) If we see a short stack go all in and someone flats, should we shove with a
wide range given the money in the pot? If so, what range?

2) What range do you put the flat caller on?