Setmining vs a 3bet

I've been thinking a lot about this. We can profitably setmine up to around a 10th of our effective stacks if we are confident they'll get it in with worse (i.e. an overpair) if we hit.

So, if I'm UTG with 44 and matey from the BTN 3bets to 9bb, but he's a pita who's been doing this a little too often, it's a fold right? Because he's likely to shut down after his cbet unless he has you beat anyway.

If I'm UTG with 44 and nit on the BTN 3bets to 9bb (and he only 3bets with QQ+,AK) maybe now it's profitable?

What do you think? I guess the reason I've been thinking this a lot lately is because I'm running into a lot of light 3bets and folding my sPPs owing to the logic above. Am I doing the right thing or losing value?

I was thinking this yesterday too, i prefer to fold because its so marginal and especially if you get 3bet in the blinds, there is a chance that the nit is just trying to 3bet you light maybe. Although if he's a huge nit and you know he's on QQ+ AK it might be fine if you have position or he will fold when you bet a low flop. Or if you get 3bet and someone else flats so theres two people in i'd sometimes call too.

Actually **** it, why dont you min 4 bet him you'l hit your set anyways you luckbox prick!

Yes, I could have been on the button and the 3bet could have come from the BB in the above examples. I feel the same way about it. Cos position doesn't make as much difference if your plan is simply to setmine.

Yeah, I'm way more likely to call with 2 or more others in.

I was specifically talking about calling a 3bet. Of course I normally shove with my set/quad guarantee

have a look at this link. it explains conditions for set mining.

set mining Conditions


http://www.cardschat.com/f50/50-nlhe...g-3bet-194852/ (http://www.cardschat.com/f50/50-nlhe-full-ring-setmining-3bet-194852/)

Also check out C9 post in Golden Archive about 3bets and 4bets etc

Stop trying to call 3bets light.

OK there are 2 basic scenarios where by a vilian can widen his 3bet range.

A) He polarises his range.
B) He depolarises his range.

Not all that many people at micros bet a truely polarised range, often its a depolarised range with a few random bluffs thrown in (but they account for such a small ratio of the range that you can ignore them)

Against a polarised range, you would 4 bet hands like 44 annd flat hands like QQ because 44 gets tonnes of folds when he folds the junk portion of his polarised range, whereas QQ can be played postflop where he is likely to try and barbell you off your hand.

You wont be against a polarised range.

You will be against a depolarised range. which is PP lots of weaker BW cards, some high SCs and so on. Now against that range you cant call. You must 4bet or fold.

If he 3bets a depolarised range and you call light you do exactly what he wants. He is now value 3betting and you are calling with a range of weaker hands.

Reason #1 for betting is for value which means that weaker hands will call and you respond to this by calling with weaker hands?... that's your plan to stop him value betting???

Setmining in 3bet pots is usually very bad because the odds you get are poor.

If someone 3bets a depolarised range then they will probably be very aggressive if they miss and you hold a small PP and dont have the betting lead so its very difficult to do anything postflop. By the same token often when they make a hand they slow down and the second you start being agressive they tighten up to nearly the nuts. So you need to hit a set to win. But when you hit a set you rarely get the money in.

Set mnining with bare minimum odds assumes you will stack off every time you hit a set and you will win everytime you stack off.

That simply isnt true, sometimes you will hit a set he will hold QQ on an A62 board and he wont stack. Other times he will stack off on that board and show a set of aces or AK and runer a flush / straight. So you need better odds than bear minimum to account for that.

At micros your decision facing a 3bet should be to 4bet or fold and flat with only a super narrow range.

Just think value betting. If he is 3betting light and his 3 bet range isnt really Junk but things like QJ and KT you cant respond by calling lighter because now you are letting him value bet you.

Got it!

I've read through your post and, as you can probably tell, I'm slowly coming to similar realisations myself, only it's quicker when you point them out! So, while I've got your attention I'm going to pick your brain a little further if that isn't being too cheeky

I've never thought tooo much about the ranges they're 3betting with, other than high aces, TT+ and maybe air. You stating that they don't polarize but tend to depolarize leads me to wonder about my own 3betting strategy.

So (and this is the bit where you tell me I couldn't be more wrong if I tried!), I rarely 3bet SCs and sPPs IP. For me, their value lies in hitting big and stacking off overpairs etc. If I 3bet them then I only get blown off the hand PF by the very hands I want to stack, and if they fold then I might as well have done it with air, and if they call I'm potentially in a sticky spot. So if you are suggesting that at the micros some people will 3bet these hands, is that a good thing, or am I correct?

Its good to bet a depolarised range if people call too much.

Its good to bet a polarised range if people raise or fold and rarely call.

Does that help?

Indeed it does. See, I knew asking you would be quicker than me working it out for myself! Thanks.

No probs.

Now bare in mind that when you 4bet a hand for value you can almost never fold it to a 5bet but you can fold your trash.

If villian calls 4bets a lot then dont polarise your 4bet range, because if he begins with a depolarised range and calls a lot then he just calls with the top X of a purely value range. If you 4bet a polaried range against that then you will often see a flop where he has the top X of a depolarised range and you hold the nuts or air. People dont call 4bets with KJ with the intention of folding to a bet and a bet in a 4bet pot will put you almost all in.

What you are loking for is a villian with a really high fold to 4bet because there is no sense in 4betting 22 just to se a flop you dont like.

BTW this is why highstakes players end up shoving or calling allins with 44 and win.

When people start 3betting polarised ranges, there simply arent enough value hands to balence the trash with so they would become insanely exploitable to 4bets. In order to prevent that they have to bluff over rthe top of players who are 4betting them correctly.

This means their 5 bet shoving range cannot be simply the nuts it has to contain air otherwise they couldnt 5bet enough to defend against the 4bets, which are happening because of their incredibly wide depolarised 3bet range, which is happening because of the villians wide opening range on the button.

So thats why Phil Ivey can call an all in 5bet with 44 and win and you cant!

If u know he has overs, then its a gamble, but odds r in your favor...

Right, need to read and reread that a few times.

While this is true (if he has overs and not a higher PP), how much heat can you stand when matey cbets a board like KT8 or AJ7 or well just about anything that makes you seriously wonder if your 44 is still good. Yes, if he has overs then 1/3 time you're still ahead OTF, but are you prepared to call the cbet and 'reassess' the turn (i.e. fold to any bet if your 4 doesn't come)? The best you can hope for is that he cbets and you call and then he gives up and you check it down and hope that he didn't catch second pair on the way.

i think the worst thing u can do is float a flop like that if villain cbets it...u should raise his cbet and that's the only way to really properly evaluate where ur at in the hand...if u just call his cbet then what are u gona do on the turn if u dont hit ur set? just check/fold? that would b terrible i think...if he 3bets ur raise to his cbet, then you can fold, if he flat calls then (from my experience) leading out on the turn even if u miss ur set is the strongest thing you can do...that gets a lot of folds from wat i've seen...otherwise, even tho you lost some more chips, you can make a more knowledgeable fold with the information you've gained as opposed to just floating and folding if u miss

UTG against people who play aggro preflop, 44 should be open-folded, not bet-folded.

Just noticed this response, thanks Belgo.

So does that mean we can open 44 from say the CO with the same pita on the BTN? Wouldn't we have a little more 'positional protection' from UTG compared to CO. I mean to say, wouldn't he be more inclined to 3bet us from the CO vs UTG?

Or did you mean simply dump 44 from your opening range if there is a aggro pita yet to act, full stop?

EDIT: I suppose the best answer to that question is to move to his left or switch tables!