RING: Why do people NOT like short stackers?

"Why do most players NOT like to play against short stackers?"

This question just popped up in my mind today as I just began using the table scanner HEM has. I noticed how many multi-tabler short stackers play at 50NL on Stars. I usually like to play against these players because I like to isolate them and put them to a decision for their stack while only being 1/3 of mine. More often than not, I end up busting them when they either call me PF with weakish stuff (me = 2-1 fave or better) or I win a flip (1-1 or close). I also win when they fold (me = 1-0 fave, lol). So as I figure it, I have the edge overall. BTW, if they are super tight, I usually leave them alone since just stealing their blinds isn't always worth it. It's the average or loose SS's I like to outplay. But for some reason, even though it feels like I am not losing money doing this, I have a feeling that my outlook on this subject is wrong.

Most players don't like to play against shorties and many experts advise against it. But I have yet come upon an expert's full explanation as to why this is. Does anyone have a good link? Or can anyone share a simple technical explanation here for us?

because they're often hard to exploit

The presence of the short-stacker alters the nature of the game. Since it is the effective stack which matters, you are for practical purposes a short stack yourself when playing against him and must adjust your game accordingly. You cannot, for example, profitably set mine or play small connectors when short stacked.

Players who prefer deepstack play dislike this, either because they dislike being forced into changing their style of play or, perhaps more often, because they lack the skill to change gears and therefore become unprofitable in the presence of short-stackers.

And for whatever reason they seem to run (leave the table) when they hit, which I know disturbs some players.

I like playing them, even tho some may win, have 2 times the amount, from beating me, but they leave the table with 0.00 .
I think if you play, short stacked, then you know how they play, and can beat them...

Nonsense. It's not a problem of skill. Most deepstack players are a lot more skilled than the scumbags who shortstack.

The problem is that it's impossible to play perfect mixed stack game. If you're deep and play against a mix of deep and short stacks, you will either have to make -EV plays against the deep stacks to avoid being exploited by the shorties, or vice versa.

Example: a deep stack opens in MP. You're on the button with a suited connectors. It's a clear call. But if there are good shortstackers in the blinds, it might be better to fold because they can squeeze profitably with such a wide range.

The reverse is true too. There are cases where it would be +EV to iso-raise a shorty or call his 3bet but you have to fold because there's another deep stack behind you and you can't risk committing a large part of your stack while he's still in the hand.

Because people choose to play with deep stacks because they enjoy the deep stacked game.

When you enter a pot with a SS or a SS enters with you, the game switches from deep stack to SS.

Its annoying simply because I don't want to play SS, if I wanted to play a SS game... I would have bought in as a SS.

Belgo,Can you give an example of what kind of hands you would want to raise a short stack,but wont because of player behind you?


Snow

Seems a tad emotional, m8. Are you having a bad day ? Not like you to tilt, surely ?

The thing is: even shortstacking scumbags don't enjoy playing the SS game. As soon as the deep stacked players leave and only SS scumbags remain at the table, they all leave. Because unless they can exploit the artificial edge of playing against deep stackers who suffer from mixed stack sizes, even a perfect short stacker cannot have enough of an edge to beat the rake.

They are strictly parasites on the deep stack games who cannot survive by themselves.

In the first example, you're MP and have TT. You're ahead of a good shortstacker's squeezing range, but if the deep stacker on the BTN is known to be tricky, it becomes really dangerous to commit 20bb.

I'm having a bad day (see monthly chat), but it's not related to playing against SSers and i feel exactly the same way about those worthless parasites on my good days.

these players are often hit and run players buy in for the min amount in a ring game hit a few hands often just 1 then leave usually back to a lower limit . This is aggravating!

Advantages and edges. Poker has them in all cases.

A game/table structure is set by the house. If you don't want to be on a table with shorties, don't buy into a table where THEY can.

No, I've seen these comments regularly by Belgo. His opinion never changes. I don't play nlhe ring at any stakes, so it doesn't affect me 'personally' one way or the other. But calling any player who buys into a table according to the rules and requirements "a scumbag" is not right.

Just like any cash player who makes bad bets and calls, they have paid to be there. If it changes the nature, texture, advantages or edges in any manner, that's part of the game. Doesn't make the player a 'scumbag', imo. He's paid his buy-in and is entitled to play any way he sees fit until he has neither a chair or chips.

If it weren't part of the game of poker, sites and pokerrooms would make all their cash tables 100BB ONLY buy-ins. Then it might be a level playing field. This is the same reason sites limit the max buy-ins so one whale cannot come in with $100,000 and bully a $100 buy-in table.

Many players may not enjoy shortstackers for various reasons, but there are a lot of CC members here who might play that way and they are in no way 'scumbags', imo. (but that's just me )

Because the good ones can basically play unexploitably and they have a mathematical edge over deepstackers?

See. This is basically what I get when I Google and read about this stuff. I'm looking for more. Anyone have a good link? 2+2 maybe?
Define good. I seem to find loose ones I can punish.
How's that?
What's their edge?

2+2 did have a great section on how to play the SS against deepstacked but I can never seem too find anything there when I need to look for it... sorry

The thread is about Cash games, not tourney.

I like to play against short stacks as well because then I can try and bully them. But playing against short stacks can be somewhat dangerous because when they have a good hand, you can easily overlook it because of there stack size.

Stick, the problem to me comes with the mixed stack sizes. If you have a short stack sitting beside a big stack it gets awkward. If I have a tight short stack to my left, I'll minraise to steal. If there's a big stack beside, a min raise gives him good implied odds. If I raise normally because one of the blinds is a full stack, the short stack can easily shove or at least raise and commit himself postflop.

And the loose ones that you run across are not the good ones, they're just bad players afraid of losing more money. The good ones are the ones who can pressure by raising/reraising/shoving while offering no implied odds.

Then, as mentioned, once they double up they can't play their game anymore because they start offering more implied odds, so the leave and rathole their winnings.

Normaly they are in push or fold mode.
And most of the time they are holding a good hand if they push.
So you can not make them fold after the flop...

No calling them scumbag is not right they are Arseholes, they dont play poker, they play Bingo, but they are a good source of cash anyway.

Ok, this is making good sense now. Thx.

Has anyone written to the sites and ASKED for Deepstack tables where min buy-in is at least the Deepstack amount? If so... responses from the sites?

Z says: They are a good source of cash.

Belgo says: "They are strictly parasites on the deep stack games who cannot survive by themselves".

Trigga says: "they are newbies and will soon learn why SS is -EV".

Why would anyone NOT want...

1. A good source of cash ?
2. Parasites who cannot survive ?
3. SS players who live by -EV ?

I have called a SS at a live table a "scumbag". Although, I prefer to call them all in idiot moron because my post flop game it terrible douche bags!!! Not afraid to say exactly what I think to anyone live or online.

1. they're not a "good source of cash"
2. because they can survive as long as they have hosts (hosts being non-SS players), and there will always be hosts
3. uh...

Above.

I don't usually play alot of ring games, but when I do, I love shortstackers. They usually only play decent hands and fold everything else, so if you raise and they reraise fold, and most of the times they are the ones folding. And when you do make a monster, they will usually pay you off if they have any ace or paint for that fact. And of course you will lose occassionally, but I've won more than lost against th ss'ers.

THIS .. ^^^^^ makes the most sense to me, so far.

and I lose 'occassionally' no matter WHAT game, levels or stakes I play.

The ones who don't make many mistakes?

next answer should explain.
From their point of view they are playing at a table full of shortstacks while you have to handle a table with deeper stacks and shortstacks. When you're playing against shortstacks such as in a turbo or just other sng when lots of people have like ~20 BBs you're looking to play hands that flop pairs and have good high card value. 67s 20 BBs deep is trash. On the other hand if you're 200 BBs deep 67s is an awesome hand to play especially in position. The difference is you can apply a lot of pressure with draws and make the nuts. On the other hand if you're 20 BBs deep you want to be pushing hands like AT, KQ, hands that are likely to flop top pair or possibly even just be good for their high-card value.

So let's do this situation, you're on the button and you have a pro shortstack in the SB and a fishy deep stack in the BB. What's your raising range? On the one hand you want to play a ton of hands against the fishy deepstacker but on the other hand if you open wide the shortstacker can exploit this and resteal on you. Compare that to a pro deepstacker and a fishy deepstacker. The pro deepstacker can still 3-bet you but you can be flatting 3-bets with a hand like 67s or 4-bet him light. Neither of these options are available against a shortstacker and even if he shoves 100% of his range you still can't call with 67s. On the other hand the hands that play well against the shortstacker are going to suck 200 BBs deep. You open raise A9o and the pro shortstacker folds, now you're playing a deep pot with A9o, not the best situation. So you're forced to go one way or the other. Most people choose to still open 67s and just let the shortstacker gain that bit of ev for the ev they gain when the shortstack folds and they play a deep hand against a fish. But the point is the shortstacker is taking away value and it has nothing to do with his skill.

Now to further this analysis say you're shortstacking and have the same situation on the button. Folded to you pro shortstacker and fishy deepstacker in the blinds. Do you still have that dilemna? Nope. You can open hands like A9 and if the fishy deepstack calls you can be stacking off if you hit an A and not even think twice. You now are essentially facing two shortstacks which is a lot easier than having to deal with a shortstack and a deepstack which require different strategy.

See what we mean about it having nothing to do with them being good? Most players don't hate shortstackers because they're good, they hate them because they have the mathematical advantage of effectively playing at a table with all similar stacks while the deeper stacks now have to deal with the variety of stack sizes and different strategies against each of them.

A few things:

Anybody ITT who thinks that deepstacked players can profit from shortstacked ones in NL games is either playing microstakes or delusional.

SS are not a problem in live games because they can't rathole. And usually they can't buy in for 20bb either. Also, you can't SS professionally live as the edges are too small. You can do it professionally online at 200nl and above by multitabling.

Deepstack players keep on asking the sites for anti SS measures. The sites offer some (FTP deep tables, PS 50bb min tables) but not too many. Mostly because by reducing the edge good players have against fishes, the SS increase the variance of the game and the time it takes to move money from fishes to regs, and therefore increase the rake the rooms get.

What I meant is very well answered by sindri below
The main reason I don't like them is that I mainly play poker for relaxation and enjoyment, and while having an enjoyable game with ppl that have brought in at the table limit up pop's a SS who then proceeds to shove almost every hand, which changes the mood of most players at the table, the good source of cash comment was made as alot of these type of SS's are shoving with rubbish more than 50% of the time, Ive had them stacking off with 79os and lesser cards.

****Edit****
After reading Belgo's last I just want to clarify that I am not delusional, I am though a Micro player, at 25nl most of the time.

Move up to 200nl, play 50k hands at non-deep, non-50bbmin tables while buying in for 100bb and then we can talk. You will realize "scumbag" is actually a really pleasant term to describe shortstackers.

It's easy to have grand principles when you're playing freerolls. Try playing against pros like vanq, zach or I do every day.