Representing the flush/straight

So, you get heads up to the flop with a good/decent player in holdem late in a tournament (Probably buy in level of 11 dollars) or in a stake level of cash game where players know a good deal about holdem and figuring out what their opponent has and making good laydowns (I dunno, 1$/2$, .50/1$?)

They raised preflop from the button and you put them on a something like AK, AQ or JJ+ at least because you've read them as tight. You call them down with 5c6c from the BB, and the flop comes 8sTd3s, you check, and they come out with an automatic cbet that you feel they've done a million and a half times. You see you have nothing, but if your opponent seems as seasoned as you think, they'd obviously think that you COULD have something because it would fall in the 'range of hands' your opponent could expect you to call his raise and cbet with at this level.

The turn comes 9s and you check-raise your opponent, and after thinking about it, they fold. You take down a pot with absolutely nothing. Was it worth the risk? Could it ever be worth the risk?

Just wondering, i mean we know bluffing is an integral part of the game, but how successful can a bluff be? Would something like this work on such a basis that you could profit from it when your opponent even has kings or aces?

I do not think a bluff like this would be worth it in a cash game. If you call his raise, you are calling with nothing. I guess that could set you up for a bluff, but that is not bluffing. If you have nothing you should not just call. If you want to try to bluff him, do not call his his raise so you can raise later. Either raise big or fold.

It's okay to call with the intention of bluffing on a later street, but it's a high risk play.

Against good players you can represent a hand and they'll fold good hands. The problem is that you're representing a hand against an opponent who has a real hand, this is high risk. Either his hand improves or he spots an inconsistency with the way you played the hand compared to the way you would if you actually had it, or maybe you just over estimate this guy and he can't fold an overpair. The point is bluffing into a strong hand is dangerous.

It's something you should do occasionally but I'd recommend very few multi-street bluffs.

Which raise? Preflop or flop?

This is pretty bad, pretty much all of it.

Pre-flop if you know he is very tight then you can call for sure but if he's on the button and your in the blinds that just sucks because I don't think you can find a decent player that has a range of AK/Q JJ+ on the button plus we're out of position that needs a great flop.

Second if you really could put him on that range, sure the flop hits you hard and hits him very bad, his c-bet sucks and you should raise/call, i'd probs raise as he might have the As/Ks.

If he calls and another spade comes then give up to any action. If it is a blank you can barrel I suppose and hope he folds though he has to be able to fold overpairs. If you don't have a crazy image this spot could work.


A much better spot is to call his CO raise from the button, this changes pretty much everything, given a solid image, we can bet raise the flop and continue on the turn to a blank. If he plays at us hard or we turn another spade I think we should just give it up.

We are not just bluffing a 'strong hand'. We are bluffing a range. If his range is AK/Q JJ+ then a 10 high monotone flop is pretty bad for him. We have a range that includes small pairs and SC's. This is great against our range. We are representing sets, flushes and maybe some straight draws.

He has either an overpair or overcards. That sucks. If he can fold overpairs then we have a lot of fold equity in THIS spot. Just bluffing a strong hand because he can fold one is stupid as it has to make sense.

Depending on image, this play will have a high rate of success against a player like me. At least, the first time...

I usually raise with strong hands, usually cbet when heads up, and if called w/ a drawy board then I'll often put my opponent on a draw. If the draw hits, I'll be quick to lay down my big pairs unless I think you're good enough to make a move.

So, against a tight/thinking opponent I'd look to make this play. He just has to have shown an ability to get away from big pairs and your bet size needs to be indicative of the hand you're representing. It may put him on alert though. I'd show him the goods once or twice before trying it again.

His position is also important. A tight players raise from EP will usually be a strong hand, big pairs/big aces. Drawy flops with low cards will be prime pickings. Drawy AQT flops... you might want to leave alone.

Sounds like a better idea to me, i didnt really consider position as much as i should of, just tried to think of a situation that might come up and if it could possibly work as a bluffing spot.

Let's say you are a weak player who never varies his play. You have a draw on the flop. On the flop you will call any C-Bet because you are getting implied odds. You make your straight. Since you are out of position on the aggressor, you check your hand. He bets again, you raise, hoping he'll call. He folds.

Now, let's say you are a savvy player who is playing low suited connectors against a tight opponent out of position because if you hit you think you can stack him. You whiff on the flop. But you've shown down hands with low suited connectors with him before, he knows it's not out of your range to call a raise out of position. The flop comes and he fails to improve. He hopes his AK is best, but has no draws other than a pair. You call. A potential straight card comes. It helps you none, but you know it's a scare card for your opponent, as it could have paired you (dropping him to five outs), or made a hand he's drawing dead to. You check. He bets again, hoping you'll fold, knowing if you call he's beat, and if you raise he's beat. You raise, hoping he'll fold. He folds.

Now, of these two examples, one player is bluffing and the other one is made. They both play the hand the exact same way, against the same opponent with the same hand. All this example illustrates is that table image and balls can win a pot, especially when your opponent doesn't have anything.

People seem to be forgetting that your range probably includes pairs too.

My response wasn't clear, saying that it's okay to make a delayed bluff was mostly in response to the post above mine. Although it applies to the OP as well it wasn't intended to say it's a good bluff.

The rest of my response was talking about representing a hand against a good player with a good hand.

The line taken in the OP isn't a good bluff because almost the only way it can win right from the start is for the opponent to fold and it's a bluff that involves calling pre-flop and the flop, both times with no real equity. It's also dependent on a scare card hitting.

The fact is that it's very high risk (usually not proffitable) and you either want a very passive opponent or a hand that actually has some equity pre-flop (SC OOP just calling doesn't have much chance of winning).

An overpair doesn't beat a straight or a flush. I'm pretty sure without a paired board you're dead by the turn, actually, barring straight or flush draws.

Of course, he could have spiked a set, in which case expect the bluff not to work, and expect to put no more money in this hand. Folding a set? Cards to come? Unheard of!

Damn, everyone seems to have differing opinions... i think i know what i'll take from this... dont bluff for biggish pots because the best answer is, as always, 'it depends.'

If you can tell the story (through your bets) that your hand beats your opponents, all they have to do is believe you. Once they believe you, you have to factor in pot odds and make sure that if your read on them is correct - they don't get the correct odds to call you - or raise. The resulting fold will win you the pot -

One thing to consider - it really really sucks when you're trying to represent the hand your opponent actually has. A lot.

Haha yeah i have some experience with that, but more along the lines of 'omg, he cant be this hand he would have to have made... a flush... damn.'

This is such a key point, I wanted to expand on it a little.

Obviously you could also 3bet from BTN against a CO open w sc's, but if you call pf, in addition to betting or raising the flop, you can also call the flop w the intention of betting behind a check on the turn, or raising the turn (i.e., you can float the flop) - the board misses everyone's hand most of the time, and if a passive Villain checks the turn, it probably missed him. Floating passive villains in position = High profit play.

One of my biggest leaks I had to fix when I started playing 50nl last year was to stop floating out of position. You don't get to see what Villain's turn action is before you act when you're oop. Floating out of position = High loss play.