Question about 3-barrelling

Are you more or less likely to bet 3 barrels in or out of position? Bluff or value, question goes for both. What is it about position that matters when you decide to barrel?

I am more likely to fire 3 barrells out of position more than with position.I think if your betting outta position it represents being strong.I usually win more of these kinda moves from outta position than when I have it and try this play.

Yeah, I think I'm more inclined to 3 barrel oop. Mainly for value sometimes for bluff b/c as Liv says, it represents a really strong line.

However as with everything, 3 barrelling is very much villain dependent and table dynamics also come into consideration.

OOP obviously. The reason we do this (either as a bluff or for value) is because their range is wider when we bet. As soon as we check and let them do something, their range becomes smaller.

If they check back, their range is weaker but now we've either missed value or its harder to bluff them (because there's less streets of betting left). If they bet, then their range is more polarized and there's less of it that we beat. Thus when they bet, our bluff is less likely to succeed, and there's less middle strength hands we can get value from.

These days I'm rarely check/calling out of position unless I think I can induce a lot of bluffs or value bets from worse. And even value bets from worse are rare, since most players will call a bet with more hands than they will bet themselves.

Is this when you opened with a raise or calling a reraise pre flop?
I think calling a reraise, mostly will be followed by a c/r or c/f, ??

janovsky: 3-barrelling means when you c-bet the flop, the turn and the river. Boom, boom, boom.

I think c9 makes good points, but I'm not sure I agree that it's obviously OOP. For those who are interested in compiling some results, run the following filter in HEM:

Find a large sample of hands.

Select position = button

In Other Filters, select "River Continuation Bet Possible", and refresh. Note the number of hands. Add, from Other Filters, "River Continuation Bet Made" and calculate the percentage.

Do the same with position = small blind.

EDIT: Actually, use the Position report (from the reports list) and you don't need to fiddle around with small blind/button.

Post findings here, please. Mine are both roughly 50% for 2009 (although sample size is a serious issue here).

I have a couple of things I'm interested in regarding this, not the least of what the hand distribution is like in vs. out of position. Is it more polarized OOP for thinking players? This is good to know when it comes to playing bluff-catching hands in vs. out of position, i.e. should we be more or less willing to call down with 99 vs. a regular in or out of position if we know he's aggressive? Intuitively, I say in position but it's possible I just think that because I always prefer to be in position in general.

Not sure if these are the figures you want.

100k hands sample this year of 6mx/fr (no HU)

River cb possible:

sb = 29

btn = 24

River cb possible + made:

sb = 18

btn = 18

Is that what you want m8?

Yup, those look like the numbers I'm after. If you look at those 18 hands (well, 36) would you say that there's a wider spread of hand strengths in position in the SB or the button? I.e. which one is more polarized?

I guess c9 triple barrels like a gazillion more often than all of us combined, so i'm looking forward to his stats...

Will post mine later tonight.

I'm also a low volume player so my sample size is tiny. I'll check mine tonight.

Looking forward to your

FP - those filters don't prove we triple barrelled though do they, just that we made a cb on the river? BTW my English is goot imo!

OK hands played in

SB = 5 out of 18 hands were purely speculative pf, the rest were big hands - lost 4 pots out of 18.

BTN = 8 out of 18 hands were purely peculative pf - I lost 3 pots out of 18.

cbet on river means you cbet flop and turn too. Otherwise it's not called a cbet.

OKi Doki, just thought that it may be the fact you just bet turn then river!

Over ~100k hands:

Possible:

SB - 85
button - 47

made:

SB - 36
button - 16

From the 130K hands I've got in HEM

SB - 23 of 30 possible

BTN - 9 of 21 possible

Maniacz!

poss:

sb: 153
btn: 149

made:

sb: 102
btn: 104

Not sure I did this right. Looking at the %, it looks like I triple barrel %66.7 OOP and %70 IP.

Over ~60k hands

SB Possible - 59
BTN Possible - 34

SB Made - 32
BTN Made - 20

Just a clarification about what these numbers show, btw: Like Chuck intuitively guessed, it's not the case that these numbers show that you triple barrel 70% of the times that you had initiative on the flop - only that you followed up a second barrel with a third 70% of the time. If you want to know how often you triple barrel when you had initiative on the flop, sort for "Flop Continuation Bet Possible" and compare it to "River Continuation Bet Made."

The numbers don't tell me as much as I had hoped for, mostly because of sample size issues. I was hoping to get a good idea of how profitable certain calldowns are, but I guess triple barrels aren't common enough to really device a standard strategy around.

Well, at least I learned that. Thanks, guys.

I think form looking at others stats, I don't triple barrel enough imo!

I think there's way to many factors going in to this to be able to come up with any "standard" strategy to work from. So much of it relies on recent history and current table dynamic that I don't think you're ever going to be able to derive much meaningful insight from looking at other players stats, other than those you are playing against regularly.

Btw, looking at my stats, it looked to me i get a ton of fold equity on the third barrel. Maybe about enough to justify 3rd barreling ATC actually.

how about posting SD/NSD graphs for 3rd barrel possible/made and 3rd barrel possible/not fired ?

It also looks like you're not double barreling enough either imo.

Eh, probably. There are many factors, but those are discernable at the table. If it had turned out that, more often than not, a 3-barrel OOP means trash and a 3-barrel IP means value (for instance) then that's useful information - even if "it depends." It's like any other statistic, really. I rely heavily on the bet-river% stat in my HUD, and while someone's decision to bet the river depends a lot on board texture, their opponent (me), action on previous streets and phase of the moon, a player with a higher % will still get looked up more often by me than one with a low number.

So I wasn't really attempting to put together a one-size-fits-all strategy for how to deal with three-barrels, it was more of a hope that I could put together an idea of what it usually meant, in and out of position respectively, and I think that over large samples this is very doable - even if it depends. Because the dependables will cancel out over time but the general tendency remains. If that makes sense.

Probably depends on your limits. Are you playing with the same people often enough that they will pick up on this? I don't think many people would track this but they might notice that you always triple barrel just from playing you enough.