QQ vs 3 Bet OOP 10NL

Hello, I am brand new to this forum. I play 10NL at Absolute Poker and have logged about 15k hands in the past month so I am not a huge multi-tabler.

I play a pretty ABC TAG style. I don't have Poker Tracker or Holdem manager but I have a VPIP under 15 and pretty much play Raise/ Fold preflop.

Twice today I made a standard .35 open raise (100bb stack) with QQ and was re-raised from a late position player also with a full stack. My feeling has been that a lot of LAG's are pushing with Ace rag and hands like KQ, KJ,KT.

Facing a 3 Bet I decided my options were to fold or face putting at least 1/2 of my stack to 4 Bet and then fearing an A or K on the flop so I shoved hoping for a fold or a LAGtard stacking off with a dominated hand, instead I ran into AA the 1st time and KK the 2nd.

I have 2 questions:

1: not having any reads on your opponent is this the correct move? Should I continue with this line?

2:would anyone call 3 bets OOP with QQ (or maybe JJ) and then playing fit/ fold on the flop?

I apologize if this has been covered before but am keen for input.

ive been playing for a while and this advice has always helped me and saved me alot over the yrs. hope it helps u with playing qq.

"if ur up against 2 aces or two kings with a pair of queens, youre about a 4 to 1 underdog. and if ur up against ak, youre only a little better than a 6 to 5 favorite. when ppl go all in before the flop they usually have one of those hands. so if u go all in before the flop with 2 queens, your money is in a lot of jeopardy. if u get called, youre probably up against aa, kk or ak in which case youll be a big dog or just a small favorite. there are better spots to get all your money in"

p589 supersytem 2 doyle brunson.

id tell u to play it with caution if u didnt get the message. lolol. its a pair of qs, yeah its a nice starting hand but its still not that great. dont get crazy with it.

GL

It all depends on the frequency of villain's 3 bet.

If they are doing so regularly then obviously they have a wider range. Very few players at micro stakes pay attention to how tight/loose other opponents are unless they are right at the either end of the spectrum so if they are 3betting a lot get it in pre, and if they aren't then you're going to have to go by player, how well they play post flop, etc.

Call see if ace comes on the board and maybe the QQ holds

Lmao... Sorry dude... I shouldn't laugh... But referring to the "Poker Bible" in this age of poker... Well, it comes back to the old thing of how poker is actually really rather like life... If you refer to the Bible in this day and age, it's not really gonna get you very far... If you refer to the "Poker Bible" when you get on the e-felt these days... Same story, it's not going to get you far...

If you want to read something relevant on 3-betting maybe read some Harrington on Online Cash Games, but anyway... If you get 3-bet when you have QQ you can hardly EVER fold. What it really comes down to is how frequently villain is 3-betting, so you can determine a range, and the positional dynamic... If you open QQ from UTG and the UTG+1 total nit 3-bets you, you can fold profitably. If you open QQ from OTB and get 3-bet out of the blinds, you're getting it in, unless it's a total nit who you have a lot of hands on and know he's only 3-betting a range of 2-3% - any more than that and you're getting it in. With HEM you can check people's 3-betting ranges by position.

QQ and AK are the two tricky hands to play in 3-bet/4-bet situations pre-flop. You want to be really studying how to react in different situations with these hands. It can give you real edge. Remember, everyone knows how to play AA and 72o - with QQ and AK you can find some real edge

just save ur handhistory then download pokertracker- a trial is free. play those qqs hard and then play em with caution. see which way works for u.

the advice from doyle has saved me a ton. i really dont care if the info is 5yrs old or 50 +yrs because its simple solid advice and has worked for me.

with qq ive gotten into more situations where the person who reraised me had aa, ak, kk or just any ol ace x and king x and hit the thier hand on the flop.

yeah there were times when i had the overpair but more times than often a reraiser isnt doing those types of reraises with a medium pair or something qq can take care easily.

others disagree wth that, and thats fine. its a forum, disagreement helps the conversation. hopefully ull find a reply that helps u.

wish u all gl finding a way to play qq.

I am looking into Poker Tracker. Maybe this comes down to a general question about 3-betting ranges for online 10NL. My perception is that most players at this level have a very narrow 3bet range (AA KK AK) and a few are maniacs (Any A or K) so without a read or history it is hard to tell what I am up against. Also I don't see alot of 3 bets folding to 4 bets here so what I am wondering is the difference between 4 betting for say $ 3.00 and then if I get called having to be in a really bad situation because I am against a bad range with 1/3 to 1/2 of my stack gone where I only am ahead of AK, so basically if no A or K hits (or I flop a set) I can c-bet and if an over does flop than check/fold OR another alternative: call the raise OOP and c-bet regardless of whether an A or K hits. If someone was using a 3-bet as a bluff with a medium pp or sc or broadway cards they might fold and if they don't I can shut down the hand. The other advantage I see to this is if I play AA or KK the same way I might get someone to stack off with AK.


Thoughts??

If you're in position, especially against nits, I think it can often be more profitable to just flat the 3bet, keeping in their weaker hands and allowing you to extract more value post flop.

Of course, that depends on you being a) better than them post flop, b) not being so scared you shut down every time an ace hits, and c) being able to lay down QQ when it is apparent they have you beat.

One thing is for certain by shoving over the 3bet you're going to be in BAD shape if called. It just doesn't make sense. If you 4bet small, say something like $2.40 (assuming the 3bet is to ~$1.10), you can save yourself some $$ because no one 5bet bluff shoves on a EP opener at 10nl FR.

Are you playing FR or 6-max?

I'm not a fan of turning QQ into a bluff OOP...

Vs someone with a 2.5% range (TT+, AKs+) you're flipping.

I'd be more likely to assign JJ+, AQs, AKo, AKo, and the scenario is pretty similar (49/51 dog); when you throw in TT and AJs it's then 52/48 in your favour.

Throw in fold equity and I'm not folding QQ that much at 10NL

If he 4bets to $2.40 or whatever the only part of those ranges that's 5betting is KK+/AK. We have a little less than 40% equity against that range. With 100BB effective stacks it's basically BE to bet $2.40 / call shove with QQ vs KK+/AK so you're just courting variance.

I just hate the 4bet shove with QQ. I think it narrows their continuation range to KK+ and occasionally a call from AK.

I think people look 4bets up a hell of a lot wider than KK+ at 10NL.

E.G.

View hand 869764
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

CO: $38.40
BTN: $7.26
SB: $32.91
BB: $90.13
UTG: $25.15
Hero (MP): $25.00

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is MP with Q ♣ Q ♠
UTG raises to $2, Hero raises to $25 all in, 4 folds, UTG calls $23

Flop: ($50.35) 2 ♣ 9 ♠ J ♣ (2 players - 1 is all in)

Turn: ($50.35) T ♦ (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($50.35) 5 ♥ (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $50.35
UTG shows 8 ♣ 8 ♦ (a pair of Eights)
Hero shows Q ♣ Q ♠ (a pair of Queens)
Hero wins $48.35
(Rake: $2.00)

Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 4 players - View hand 869765
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

BB: $26.62
Hero (CO): $25.00
BTN: $25.00
SB: $12.00

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is CO with A ♥ K ♣
Hero raises to $0.75, 1 fold, SB raises to $1.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $5, SB raises to $8.75, Hero raises to $12.50, SB calls $3.25 all in

Flop: ($24.25) 9 ♠ 3 ♠ 7 ♠ (2 players - 1 is all in)

Turn: ($24.25) 9 ♣ (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($24.25) 8 ♠ (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $24.25
Hero shows A ♥ K ♣ (a pair of Nines)
SB shows Q ♣ Q ♦ (two pair, Queens and Nines)
SB wins $23.25
(Rake: $1.00)

Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 869766
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

UTG: $29.34
MP: $25.70
CO: $25.00
BTN: $7.36
Hero (SB): $25.00
BB: $28.40

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with K ♦ K ♥
4 folds, Hero raises to $1, BB raises to $3, Hero raises to $25 all in, BB calls $22

Flop: ($50.00) 5 ♥ 8 ♦ A ♥ (2 players - 1 is all in)

Turn: ($50.00) 6 ♠ (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($50.00) Q ♦ (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $50.00
Hero shows K ♦ K ♥ (a pair of Kings)
BB shows Q ♠ Q ♥ (three of a kind, Queens)
BB wins $48.00
(Rake: $2.00)

Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 869767
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

UTG: $35.81
MP: $25.00
CO: $9.29
BTN: $25.00
SB: $29.51
Hero (BB): $28.60

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BB with A ♣ A ♥
2 folds, CO raises to $0.75, 2 folds, Hero raises to $3, CO raises to $8, Hero raises to $13, CO calls $1.29 all in

Flop: ($18.68) 9 ♠ 3 ♠ Q ♦ (2 players - 1 is all in)

Turn: ($18.68) 9 ♥ (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($18.68) Q ♠ (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $18.68
CO shows 8 ♦ 8 ♥ (two pair, Queens and Nines)
Hero shows A ♣ A ♥ (two pair, Aces and Queens)
Hero wins $17.75
(Rake: $0.93)

Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players - View hand 869768
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Hero (SB): $25.00
BB: $63.24
UTG: $213.17
CO: $25.00
BTN: $25.20

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with K ♠ K ♣
3 folds, Hero raises to $1, BB raises to $2.75, Hero raises to $10, BB raises to $24.25, Hero raises to $25 all in, BB calls $0.75

Flop: ($50.00) 7 ♥ A ♦ J ♣ (2 players - 1 is all in)

Turn: ($50.00) 6 ♦ (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($50.00) 2 ♦ (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $50.00
Hero shows K ♠ K ♣ (a pair of Kings)
BB shows J ♠ A ♠ (two pair, Aces and Jacks)
BB wins $48.00
(Rake: $2.00)

Just a few examples

The problem I have with 4bet folding QQ is you lose a lot of value against more aggro players who overvalue AK/AQs/JJ. If you always 4 bet fold QQ how are you meant to make money from them when you only ever win a $2 pot?

Obviously if they're continuing with wide ranges I'm not folding QQ. At the same time I'm still not 4bet shoving $10 into a $1 pot without knowing that they're drooling idiots.

Also are your hands are from 6-max. Ranges are MUCH narrower at FR and I asked in my comments if OP was playing FR or 6-max. At 6-max stacking QQ is very standard.

I've got nothing against 4betting QQ and calling a shove, but how do you plan on making money with QQ if you're constantly 4 bet folding?

Obviously I'm not always 4bet/folding. Against some players I'll 4bet/call it off. Some players will fold their 30% equity (if we get AIPF) with hands like AQ/AJ and sometimes they will actually flat the 4bet and play fit/fold postflop.

The average micro FR player only 3bets like 3 or 4% (JJ+,AK,maybe a random SC) and they fold the weakest part of that range to our 4bet almost regardless of size. So getting it in preflop in these situations is break even at best against nittier regs and full stacked unknowns. This is especially true if we're in EP because our range is stronger, so we get 3bet even less (AK usually flats in position).

Damn.
It could be any high pair, or A-K.
Gl on next time, try make better reads.

Fair enough, thought you were suggesting 4bet fold only :P

Ah, the FR/6-max thing... Sorry, I've just been assuming 6-max, lol... Does anyone even play FR anymore? :P

Anywho... @fx20736 - look into HEM, not PT3. HEM's about twice as good. And yeah, I think knowing how to play your QQ and AK when you get 3-bet/4-bet is very much villain dependent. Against an unknown I'm stacking when the positional dynamic is aggressive (e.g. blind on blind, button on blinds, CO on blinds even). I like to be the one to making the committing bet pre-flop with AK, so if I get 3-bet I like to 4-bet enough to make sure they know I'm surely committed whatever they do, and if I get 4-bet small I like to shove against looser bettors.

I think the bottom line on this is this: it's villain-range dependent, so you pretty much need some stats or to remember when they've 3-bet before, lol.

I'll just say I disagree but do yourself a favor and try both free trials and pick the one you prefer.

60 day free trial of PT3 = the nuts for micro players

... It's a well-established fact that HEM is better than PT3... I haven't used PT3 for a while, so maybe they improved it, but last time I used it their popup could never compare to HEM's "Big Box" - this is huge. HEM's Big Box totally kills it.

I have used both programs and much prefer PT3. It has improved drastically since it was released and I'd say it is the better product currently imo.

I love PT3, I bought it a few monthes ago and haven't looked back.

I agree with WV, I don't like the 4bet shove. It you in a position where you either win a little or lose a lot. Getting away from those QQ vs AA spots will save you a lot of money, but at the same time its important not to be overly conservative.

This is why your read is so important. With no knowledge on the player at 10NL I probably would have been fine getting it all in pre-flop though so I wouldn't feel too bad about it if I were you.

The supersystem really doesn't apply to 10nl online poker.

I downloaded the free trial of Hold 'Em Manager but could not get it to start up. I kept getting error messages. Also is there a tutorial or video that shows how it works?

I would recommend starting with PT3 for no other reason that it has a 60-day trial and will allow you to become familiar with using tracking software correctlybefore you use the shorter 15-day HEM trial.

Srry I didnt read all the other posts.

Facing a 3bet from the btn or CO while holding QQ?

4-bet/fold. You'll learn to save LOTS of money that way.

2.25X - 2.5X his 3bet should do the trick.

if i dont have a read on this player ill prolly just call because if the flop is low you have a huge advaantage on AK if an A or K comes on the flop it is easy to fod to a c-bet. There is also the possibility you can hit a set with the hand and crush his AA or KK

You're gonna turn QQ into a 4-bet bluff? I'm not a fan of this. By the time we 4-bet, even that small, we'll be getting a really nice price to call a 5-bet shove at 100BB deep vs. a range of QQ+/AK.

Nice thread (madtom, it matsy from DTB), so much too yap about!

Hands like this one are why we NEED our software. I like PT3, try both and see what you like.

As for the hand, flatting the 3bet is the worst option. At 10nl playing a 3bet is way out of most players comfort zones. Moreover, we're oop against an unknown... Do we really want to get into 3bet pot here?

Go for the 4bet and get it all in if villain shoves. There is no need to 4bet half your stack as the OP mentioned. I think its Hillbilly that said 2.40ish which is spot on. With no info on the villain I would much rather get it all in with QQ than try to play postflop oop.