QQ and 4bets

#1 11th February 2010, 2:47 AM

Should I be laying down Queens when someone 4bets me with them and I have no reads?

#2 11th February 2010, 3:36 AM

Shove and consider it highly +EV.

Most 4bet ranges are wider than AA/KK, and you've already got maybe 18bb in the pot (3bb raise from them, 9bb 3bet from you, call and raise from them).

If they're a complete nit, folding can be ok but shoving is never going to be hugely -EV unless stack sizes are very deep (much more than 100bb).

#3 11th February 2010, 4:33 AM

In general... don't do it. (Unless they are a short stack)

The problem is that against their range of AA-JJ and AK you are a 47 to 53 underdog.

However there are some opponents that always shove AA and KK if they are 3-bet thus replacing the 4-bet with a shove, so if you take those hands out of their 4-bet range you are about a 55 to 45 favorite.

It is a pretty thin line and shoving your stack on a 55 to 45 difference is going to be pretty high variance, so get ready to get hit with some pretty bad beats.

That being said it is all about what their range to 4-bet with is, and if you can narrow that down you can make a more correct decision.

#4 11th February 2010, 6:59 AM

What stakes are we talking here?

#5 11th February 2010, 9:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ubercroz

In general... don't do it. (Unless they are a short stack)

The problem is that against their range of AA-JJ and AK you are a 47 to 53 underdog.

However there are some opponents that always shove AA and KK if they are 3-bet thus replacing the 4-bet with a shove, so if you take those hands out of their 4-bet range you are about a 55 to 45 favorite.

It is a pretty thin line and shoving your stack on a 55 to 45 difference is going to be pretty high variance, so get ready to get hit with some pretty bad beats.

That being said it is all about what their range to 4-bet with is, and if you can narrow that down you can make a more correct decision.

We really need to take stack size and pot odds into account. Depending on the size of the pot, the amount of fold equity we have by 5bet shoving, and the effective stack size amount, getting it in as a 47% dog is +Ev (see pokerkid's post above).

Stakes is a good question - if an unknown at these stakes is ONLY 4betting KK+ (hard for me to imagine, I think AK is common even at 2nl?), it'll have an impact on the math.

#6 11th February 2010, 6:13 PM

sorry, im playing 10nl and lets say each person starts off with 100bbs.

Im just asking i've been having a few sessions where i have kings and I get 4bet so i 5bet shove and run into aces(not that i have a problem with that, i never fold kings pre) but in another session I had queens in the bb(first hand in!) and some guy from utg raises and so i 3bet and he 4bet shoves and turns over aces.

#7 12th February 2010, 3:14 AM

I don't think people 4-bet as lightly as you guys think, but that's just in my games maybe.

Play Texas Hold'em Online Poker \| QQ and 4bets
BetOnline Poker is a top online poker site accepting all US players with an INSTANT cash bonus of up to $900 FREE. It also has a casino and sports betting available.	PokerStars is one of the best sites to play online poker. Using PokerStars marketing code CCHAT you get a $600 bonus. Note: No US Players Accepted.