Putting together a COMPLETE 3-betting strategy

#1 25th June 2010, 7:12 PM

Hello Friends!

I wanted to start this thread as I am currently trying to build a complete strategy for 3-betting at in 10NL FRHE cash games.

In the past my 3-btting has been extremely hit and miss, not taking in to account opponents's tendancies and generally pretty basic and somewhat flawed. I have been reading and studying every article I can find on the subject. The following is what I have come up with so far.

The factors that influence the ranges you will 3-bet are:

The strength and tightness of your opponent's perceived range:
Your opponents PFR %
The average PFR%of the players I am up against is about 9. Anyone with a PFR% of 11 or over I will class as loose. Anyone with a PFR% of 7 or under I will class as tight.
Your opponents position at the table
I will look to divide the table in to approximately early, middle and late position. All things being equal, a plyer raising from earlier position has a tighter, stronger perceived range.

...putting these two together:

.............early.........middle..........late

<7 PFR..... 5..............4 ...............3

7-11 PFR ..4............. 3............... 2 (I would use these for villains that I have no significant stats on)

>11 PFR... 3 .............2 .............. 1

Using the numbers in bold we get the strength of villian's perceived range

5 = Very strong-a very tight range
4 = strong-a tight range
3 = average-an average range
2 = loose-a wide range
1 = very loose-a very wide range

YOUR position at the table:
I will look to divide the table in to approximately early, middle and late position.

The way your opponent is expected to react to your 3-bet:
The average fold-to-3-bet% of the players that I am up against is 78%. If his % is <78 I would imagine a 3-bet range balanced more towards value would be better and conversly if his % is >78 then more 3-bet-light hands should be included to semibluff?

Relative stack sizes
Have yet to get around to this bit!

Your table image
Have yet to get around to this bit!

#2 25th June 2010, 7:22 PM

Ok, as you can see above I have arranged five 3-betting ranges.

The first is purely the nut-value selection. I would imagine these would best be use in the worst case scenario. Villain has a very tight and strong perceived range AND I am in early position.

The last one has a proportion of nut:semi-bluff-air of 1:5 and is the other end extreme. I would imagine re-raising these if I am in late position AND villain has a very weak perceived range (high PFR and he is in late position)

Obviously the middle three are somewhere in between!

I think I am finally on the right track with this 3-betting thing. What do you guys think of my ranges and general thinking?

How about 3-betting from the blinds? should my ranges or betting sizes change?

How do you think I should adjust my play to people who love to fold to 3-bets and people who hate to?

What kind of postflop trategy should I employ?

I know I am just scratching the tip of the iceberg here but your thoughts and critisisms are welcome as ever!

Frank.

#3 25th June 2010, 8:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deceitful_Frank

.............early.........middle..........late

<7 PFR..... 5..............4 ...............3

7-11 PFR ..4............. 3............... 2 (I would use these for villains that I have no significant stats on)

>11 PFR... 3 .............2 .............. 1

I think that your ranges are too tight. You are right about the PFR being your best judge. But, you easily have the 3-bet and fold to 3-bet stat available to you at all times. Are you just trying to make a hand chart to go off of for 3-betting ranges for yourself vs. opponent of x amount of VPIP?

#4 25th June 2010, 8:24 PM

Kind of yes. I know that charts and graphs are hardly the best thing to use when playing but I think they help to keep you on the right track.

I believe that If I can assign a number (using the table in my first post) to villains perceived opening strength and then somehow factor in my position at the table (obviously later is better) I can use this information to choose one of the five 3-betting ranges in the graphic that I uploaded.

I can then take in to account image, stack sizes and how I expect villain to react to tweak one of the said 5 ranges. Just not quite clear in my mind how I am going to go about this yet!

Might I be better simply assigning a 3-bet range to villains perceived openng strength (there are 5 of each afterall!) and then adjusting to suit my position, stack sizes and images? Maybe this could be a more intuitive process?

#5 25th June 2010, 8:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Pilgrim

I think that your ranges are too tight. You are right about the PFR being your best judge. But, you easily have the 3-bet and fold to 3-bet stat available to you at all times.

My ranges are too tight? I have data on several thousand players at 10NL and can assure you they do for the most part play this tight... average is 9.42% PFR!

Lots and lots of 7/6 nits, a few scary 17/14 regs but thankfully the occasional 41/3 idiot!

Lol sometimes I think that small-medium stake players don't realise how much the micros have improved and tightened up over the last few years!

Yes I will have these figures in my HUD (with >100 sample) for around 30% of opponents.

I would just assume that the guys I have yet to gather 100 hands on (I don't show numbers untill 100 hands are gathered) will have the average 9%PFR and then use the simple table I created the same way.

#6 25th June 2010, 9:44 PM

Interesting thread, let's hope that more of the regulars here will give some input.

#7 25th June 2010, 10:00 PM

I dunno the only people you are going to see with VPIP and PFR that tight are going to be regs if your stats only show after 100 hands... I think 10 - 20 is good enough to get decent stats on villains, if you have no HUD for other "fishy" villains unless they reach 100 hands with you, how do you expect to make money if you only see stats from regs?

I'm not understanding 100% why you only show stats from players with 100 hands or more. You're losing out on a lot of info. You may never have stats display on a fish and with the 100 hand rule... then yes you're only going to see PFR of 7-11.

#8 25th June 2010, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deceitful_Frank

My ranges are too tight? I have data on several thousand players at 10NL and can assure you they do for the most part play this tight... average is 9.42% PFR!

Your ranges dont take into account position.

I would suggest adding in

Attempt to steal "ATS"
ATS (overall)
ATS(HJ)
ATS(CO)
ATS(BTN)
ATS(SB)

The 9% PFR average sounds about right however that is an average for all positions.

A steal is a PFR in an unopened pot from HJ onwards.

The same group with an overall PFR of 9% should have an

ATS(overall) of 25%
ATS(CO) of 20%
ATS(BTN) of 32%
ATS(SB) of 29%

That might give you a bit more room to play with!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deceitful_Frank

Lol sometimes I think that small-medium stake players don't realise how much the micros have improved and tightened up over the last few years!

True but the BTN opening range is still almost 4 times wider than the 9% figure you are working from.

#9 25th June 2010, 10:50 PM

What does ATS(HJ) mean?

#10 25th June 2010, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoWuckingFurries

What does ATS(HJ) mean?

attempt to steal from the hijack

#11 25th June 2010, 10:54 PM

I understood the cutoff and button ones, but I've never heard the phrase hijack used in the context of poker - what does it mean?

#12 25th June 2010, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoWuckingFurries

I understood the cutoff and button ones, but I've never heard the phrase hijack used in the context of poker - what does it mean?

Is this a level?

If not the HJ is the seat before the CO

#13 25th June 2010, 11:01 PM

I think how well your opponent folds is more important than his perceived range strength. Who cares if he only raises 8% pre? If he folds to 80%, then we're still getting crazy good value bluffing him with stuff that has some equity when called by his KK+. His PFR numbers are just nice because they converge to their true values really fast.

I also notice you're never 3-betting jacks or tens, which to me seems like a crazy obvious mistake. You deffo will run into situations where you can 3-bet down to like 99+, KQ+ for value.

I like this post tho. Really you should think of things as a range continuum, instead of 5 distinct ranges.

#14 25th June 2010, 11:02 PM

Well I don't want to hijack the thread, but that's new terminology to me. I can understand why you would call it a button, or cutoff, or under the gun (sort of) but I don't really see what relevance hijack has.

#15 26th June 2010, 7:45 AM

Thanks guys for your input, it seems like just when I have got this 3-bet thing sussed outin my head there is even MORE to think about!

Lol, think I am slowly getting there though! For now I am just sticking to value and a little light in those obvius spots untill I get my head fully around it. But...

Quote:

Originally Posted by c9h13no3

I also notice you're never 3-betting jacks or tens, which to me seems like a crazy obvious mistake. You deffo will run into situations where you can 3-bet down to like 99+, KQ+ for value.

I like this post tho. Really you should think of things as a range continuum, instead of 5 distinct ranges.

As I said before, those 3-bet ranges are by no means set in stone. I would use them as a rough guide to keep me on the right track until I have memorized them, just like I did 10 months ago when I draw out my first starting hand chart. I still take a quick peak at it now but only once every thousand hands or so! Of course there will be times when I would 3-bet with 99+ and high broadways. Against a villain with F3-bet of <70 would be a prime example ...and I would be a fool to to try and 3-bet semi-bluff with 86s!

Coming on to Stu's point about taking in to account ATS numbers. I have these in my HUD at present but I will say that the vast majority of players are positionally aware enough for their ATS% to be double -2.5X their PFR. I know these numbers should impact my decision but for the moment I want this process to remain reasonably simple!

I have dropped from 6-4 tables and am finding slower thinking poker more profitable though I realise my variance will seem higher. For the moment the time I am spending thinking about 3-bets prevents my attention wondering over to ATK exotics and teen shaved!

I will rethink my desision to only display >100 hands of stats. I put this in place to stop myself giving weight to meaningless statistics but I can see that VPIP andPFR can become of some use quite quickly.

What do you guys think of my 3-betting ranges? the 2.6 and 12.5 would be use mainly in extreme circumstances. All would obviously be tweeked on the fly.

#16 26th June 2010, 1:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deceitful_Frank

Thanks guys for your input, it seems like just when I have got this 3-bet thing sussed outin my head there is even MORE to think about!

Lol, think I am slowly getting there though! For now I am just sticking to value and a little light in those obvius spots untill I get my head fully around it. But...

As I said before, those 3-bet ranges are by no means set in stone. I would use them as a rough guide to keep me on the right track until I have memorized them, just like I did 10 months ago when I draw out my first starting hand chart. I still take a quick peak at it now but only once every thousand hands or so! Of course there will be times when I would 3-bet with 99+ and high broadways. Against a villain with F3-bet of <70 would be a prime example ...and I would be a fool to to try and 3-bet semi-bluff with 86s!

Coming on to Stu's point about taking in to account ATS numbers. I have these in my HUD at present but I will say that the vast majority of players are positionally aware enough for their ATS% to be double -2.5X their PFR. I know these numbers should impact my decision but for the moment I want this process to remain reasonably simple!

I have dropped from 6-4 tables and am finding slower thinking poker more profitable though I realise my variance will seem higher. For the moment the time I am spending thinking about 3-bets prevents my attention wondering over to ATK exotics and teen shaved!

I will rethink my desision to only display >100 hands of stats. I put this in place to stop myself giving weight to meaningless statistics but I can see that VPIP andPFR can become of some use quite quickly.

What do you guys think of my 3-betting ranges? the 2.6 and 12.5 would be use mainly in extreme circumstances. All would obviously be tweeked on the fly.

This is all good stuff and gave me some things to consider. But don't get too locked in to formulaic playing. And do understand that as you up your aggression level by adding more 3-betting, your variance will also increase. More aggression=greater swings. Expect it, accept it.

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