Problem with TPTK, Set and bloating pot size

I have this question. Suppose you have AKs, flop pairs you up with Ace, 9, 8. You make a bet, pot size. You get one caller and the turn brings a 7. Should you bet on the turn with a straight possiblity or just check the turn so as not to bloat the pot too much with TPTK only. Or should you bet to take the pot down or fold if raised.

I hear that with TPTK, you should keep the pot small and only build the pot when you have a monster hand.

why pot the flop?

Protect your hand? TPTK = vulnerable. I would rather take down the pot with a board like that. Or should I bet 1/2, 2/3 of the pot? What do you think?

You're approaching the problem wrong.

First ask this:

1. What's your position?
2. What's his position?
3. What's your stack?
4. What's his stack?

Alright, that'll generate quite a bit of scenarios, but for simplicity's sake, let's say.

Scenerio 1:
I'm in EP, I raised 5xBB, folds to villain, who calls from LP. I've a stack of about 90 BB. He's even.

Scenerio 2:
He's in EP, limps. I raise 3xBB +1bb for every limper and he calls with the rest folding. Even stacks again of about 90BB each.

Scenerio 3:
He's in EP, limps. I raise 3xBB +1bb for every limper and he calls with the rest folding. He's has a stack of 90 BB, I'm with 45 BB

Scenerio 4:
I'm in EP, I raised 5xBB, folds to villain, who calls from LP. I've a stack of about 45 BB. He's 90BB.

Scenerio 5:
He's in EP, limps. I raise 3xBB +1bb for every limper and he calls with the rest folding. He's has a stack of 45 BB, I'm with 90 BB

Scenerio 6:
I'm in EP, I raised 5xBB, folds to villain, who calls from LP. I've a stack of about 90 BB. He's 45 BB.

My philosophy in situations like these is to try to set things up so that any decision I have to make later on will be easier, often at the cost of the present decision being slightly tougher. What does that mean here? It means to try to keep the pot small when I have more chips to make mistakes with, and to try to get it all in when I'm low on chips.

On the flop:

With short effective stacks (effective = the smallest stack of the two of you) I'll want to get it all-in with AK and a flop with an A:
-- Out of position, I'll bet the pot on the flop. If called, I'll move in on any turn. If he hit his draw, sucks to be me. He clearly liked enough about that flop to call me, and chances are he's liking it with AQ or AJ.
-- In position, I'll bet the pot twice. I'm not quite as happy getting it all-in when I have position, since I want to keep that advantage. If I get re-raised at any point, I'll call or just push.

With big effective stacks, I want to avoid getting trapped. So:
-- Out of position, I bet half-to-2/3rds of the pot. If called, I'll check any turn and re-evaluate. To this particular turn, I'd call a pot sized bet and check the river. Few players will have the stomach to bet the river with anything weaker than a two pair hand since they must know that very few people fold. Therefore, I'll often fold to a large bet on the river if it comes to that.
-- In position, I'll pot the flop and bet/fold the turn with a half-pot-sized bet. If I get checkraised, I'm out of there against an unknown or typical opponent.

Hey Paulsson,

Thanks for the clear explanation. I think I understand the logic. That really is a philosophy. Kinda surreal... I don't deny that I have trouble understanding the importance of stack sizes. Why is it that you would play differently when you're the bigger stack or smaller stack?

Suppose you can see your opponnent's cards. He's holding KQ, you're holding AK. He's the smaller stack, Flops K, J, 10. You bet 2/3 the pot and he calls. You check the turn (rag), he moves all-in. What do you do?

I always thought, with my limited experience in Holdem, that by controlling the pot odds, you want your opponent to call with the second best hand, thereby making a mistake which you make money off from it. I really fail to see the importance of stack sizes.

Sorry for so many questions. I just want to improve my game.

First off, I'm far from a no limit expert, so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. Having said that:

No limit, while being partially about creating situations where your opponent makes large mistakes, is also just as much about avoiding to make them yourself. TPTK is exactly the kind of hand that can get you in trouble. If you have a large stack, you can go for keeping the pot small, and avoid making costly mistakes. With a small stack, especially out of position, the chance that TPTK is best is simply too big for you to fold to any real aggression anyway, and in cases where you're faced with the option of moving all-in or calling all-in, it's mostly better to be the one doing the pushing since you have some fold equity that way. There are, as always, exceptions to this but if I have to speak in generic terms, that's what I'd say.

It's an interesting topic.

As if he was smiling down on us, Ed Miller just made this post about the difference between small stacks and big stacks with TPTK, and I'd like to think he says the same things that I'm trying to say (wohoo!). The hands themselves are very different, but it's the part about how the situation changes with a small vs. a big stack that's interesting. Check it out:

http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/n...-thoughts.html

It seems to me that if you're the big effective stack, you play more passively out of position. The whole idea if I'm not wrong, is to protect your big stack from getting trapped out of position(pot commited). Is that the reason to Check call even if you have TPTK? Pot control I'd imagine.

Now I'm finally beginning to get it. The whole idea is to protect your big stack right?. Stack size, position. Interesting. I feel though, it might be a little passive when you're playing the big stack. Wouldn't you get pushed around by the smaller stack with a well timed semi-bluff? Out of position, on the turn, I'd think after reading your post and the ed miller's discussion, with TPTK, it's best to check call to control the pot size. isn't that like giving the villain a free river card if he decides to check too? Wouldn't it be better to value bet, running the risk of bloating the pot. Alright, that's some tough decisions...

Thanks for the link.

Well, the thing is that if you have a big stack, the small stack can't really bully you: his bets lack teeth by definition. And yes, when you have a big stack the danger lies in getting trapped. With a small stack, there's no danger; there's only smaller returns on investment.

Making the pot the size you want it to be is the name of the game in NL.

With JUST TPTK I like to control the size of the pot. If I raised PF and get called, I'm ALLWAYS planning to bet twice, assuming I pair the board. That being so, a pot sized bet is too big for the flop. A smaller flop bet, say 1/2 to 3/4, makes a follow up bet on 4th street more affordable, while still making it a mistake for any come hands to continue. Don't forget, you want him to call. The pot sized bet, while overtly more defining, is in fact, less telling. Yes, the drawing hand is more likely to fold, but he's also more likely to see a free card when he calls, and more likely to take advantage of implied odds if he connects as you may be less likely to put him on a draw.

Another good question to add to FP's list:
Tournament of ring?

I would say bet 1/2 the pot and then if you get raised you have too feel the player, can you afford it and all that. Make a feeler bet to yea, get the feeling of your opponent. In most cases your hand is probably good, if you get a min. raise back you should consider yourself beat.

I'm always impressed with your posts replies FP. IMO your the most knowledgable contributer to this site, particularly concerning LH. So, consider this nothing less than a difference of opinion. It seems to me that changing the size of your bet from flop to turn represents weakness or at least uncertainty. You might as well just anounce "I have top pair only and I'm worried that I'm being slow played". Consistency is the name of the game. Whatever you bet on the flop, 1/2, 2/3, 3/4, bet on the turn. This way your representing confidence and resolve. Keeping the betting in the 1/2 to 3/4 range allows you to remain consistent while keeping subsequent bets both affordable and meaningful. It also forces the come hands to make difficult decisions and sends a message to the table that you cannot be drawn out on cheaply.
Incidently, I recommend this for stronger holdings such as 2 pair and sets as well as TPTK in order to disguise your hand.

Good point! I balance this particular play of mine by sometimes doing the same thing with monsters, but I suppose I should have mentioned that at some point.

Betting smaller on the flop (and therefore also on the turn) is of course a viable option as well. I could go either way.

That makes sense too. Wow, I think I've learned quite a bit from this thread. Thanks to you guys. Now, I just have to remember to use them the next time I play.

yeah, i definetly price out draws but keep it affordable just incase im being trapped.