***PLO Cash Game Thread***

[BenLZ]

A lot of us PLO players are pretty new to the game and I think here we can exchange thoughts and analyze certain recurring situations. I guess I mean this thread as a way for the new players (including myself) to ask questions about the game and as a way to generally just exchange knowledge and talk about a game that is pretty different from hold'em.

Alright, so let's pose this question. Feel free to ask questions and just talk about the game. I'll start things off.

1. How aggressively do you play your 13 nut out straight draws? Are you jamming the pot with these every time?
2. How valuable do you see aces and kings? Would you rather have aces or kings than a hand like 89TJ?
3. What are your thoughts on an overpair + nut flush draw? Do you generally get it in with 100BBs against a non-rock opponent?

 

[slycbnew]

Great idea!

1. 100bb's? All the straight outs are nutty? On a rainbow flop, yes, I'm jamming the pot. On a two toned flop (esp where I don't have the flush draw or the backdoor fd), I'm less likely to jam the flop.
2. If someone w a 2% 3bet 3bets, I'd rather have the rundown.
3. Too flop dependent to answer imo, but generally I don't. Here's a simulation of one hand:

Omaha Hi Simulation
820 trials (Exhaustive)
board: Ts7s3c
Hand equity
ThTcKd2d 66.22%
AsKsJhJd33.78%

 

[Marginal]

Those are too situational for me to give you a true answer. To me the cards are the least important thing when it comes to omaha.

Just posting to subscribe to thread.

 

[atlantafalcons0]

I'm beginning to love Cap PL O.

Subcribed.

 

[Tygran]

marking this thread...

 

[Tygran]

d
1. How aggressively do you play your 13 nut out straight draws? Are you jamming the pot with these every time?

What kind of flop? What's my position? Heads up? Multiway? TAG/LAG/Maniac/straightforward/bluffy/etc villain(s)?

ok I made my point... to try and answer though..

1) rainbow, unpaired flop: don't care the situation, I want to get it in generally unless I'm up against a maniac who might bet for me

2) most other flops? it depends....

2. How valuable do you see aces and kings? Would you rather have aces or kings than a hand like 89TJ?

nowhere NEAR enough info and I could write an essay on this question alone..

depends on (list may not be complete): position, suits, sidecards, villains, my table image, etc etc


Let's take for example: KKQJ DS... very very strong hand but dominated by aces (does pretty well against JT98 though). In general I will 3bet this but if I get 4bet (or if I raise and someone else 3bets me) what I do with it depends on the villain... an unknown or a tag with a 3b% say less than 2.5% i'm flatting and seeing the flop before proceeding, cause they have AA most of the time. Am I getting reraised by a maniac with a 10%+ 3bet? I may get it in pre against that.

Now give me: KK73 SS say (btw KK73 rainbow is borderline trash... only good for a set mine really)... I'm only raising this if I can open it in late position, although I'm limping and calling a single raise from most places as a set mine.

AAxx? depends on how strong the AA are and all the other factors (btw and this bears repeating over and over and over again)... position is the single most important factor in this game. more so than your cards.
With AA though... depends on how much money I can get in preflop as to what I want to do with them... in general you need to get ~35% or more of your stack in preflop to go nuts 3betting/4betting them. However super strong AAxx you can jam regardless preflop (like AAQQ DS or AAJT DS etc)

3. What are your thoughts on an overpair + nut flush draw? Do you generally get it in with 100BBs against a non-rock opponent?

Need to define a bit better than "non-rock opponent"...

What's the overpair? What's the board? How many villains?

If it's a high pair like KK or AA + NFD you can generally get that in and be ok most of the time especially heads up... If it's TT + NFD or even QQ+NFD that's significantly worse.

Is the board paired? Are there any straights possible? those things matter quite a bit too.

but like everything else..it depends!


I'll be back with more thoughts later

 

[slycbnew]

I'm playing the 100bb-250bb tables at PS now that they have them (buying in for 200bb's, dropped down to 10plo to try it). So far, mostly regs are on these tables, though each table has one or two players who don't appear to be regs. I'm guessing that even the regs don't have a lot of experience w antes. The tables break down pretty quickly so far.

 

[cAPSLOCK]

I'm beginning to love Cap PL O.

Subcribed.

Degen.



Subscribed.

 

[slycbnew]

How much are we "punishing the limpers" in position? So, as CO or BTN, how widely are we raising against which villain types when they open limp UTG or MP? When are we overlimping (hand types, villain types)? How do the players in the blinds factor into our decisions?

 

[Tygran]

How much are we "punishing the limpers" in position? So, as CO or BTN, how widely are we raising against which villain types when they open limp UTG or MP? When are we overlimping (hand types, villain types)? How do the players in the blinds factor into our decisions?

Eh.. There isn't a ton of "punishing the limpers" in plo... nothing like there is in NLHE

why? cause they virtually always call and usually with not terrible equity.

we do however have position on them, but really if 2 people limp (assuming a six max table) and you have at least one blind that always likes to call, raising marginal hands in what will almost certainly be a 4 or 5 way pot may not be the wisest choice.


Part of it depends on the limpers though... if they are tightish, or maybe very loose/weak (lots of players are) who never fold much pre but give up as soon as they totally miss then you can raise a limper or two like this more liberally and use position. But you have to be aware of the blinds though too!

And yes the blinds matter a fair amount for btn decisions... with two calling station blinds or two maniac blinds I'm not raising near as widely over a limp or two. If you have TAG or nits in the blinds though... raise, raise raise away over one limper.. over two limpers be more picky and be aware of the type of player the limpers are.



For example... I think it's profitable to raise hands like Axxx suited to the ace (even crappy side cards) over a good number of loose/weak/passivish types since many might pay off with a Q high flush if they get there and you can make them fold a bunch.





I'm kind of rambling but in a nutshell: No you can't really punish limpers that much... main thing you should pay attention to is the likelihood of a 3-5 way pot vs a heads up pot... a 3 way pot is kinda a judgement call based on the players involved.

 

[BenLZ]

I've actually been playing a lot of Hi/Lo limit...kind of want to start a thread on that now I don't want it to seem like I'm spamming.

 

[Suited Frenzy]

Lookin' forward to this thread blowin' up w/ great situational info.

I can't wait to study this ish being PLO is my fav poker game.

I'm like a sponge baby, a sponge I tell ya!

 

[ythelongface]

im just gettin my feet wet in PLO, so i dont think ill be posting much in this thread, but im sure ill be checking it out, and perhaps posting down the road a bit.

 

[slycbnew]

I agree that punishing the limpers is a different beast in PLO than NLHE - we can't do it w "ATC" like we can in NLHE. Depending on the player, though, I think bloating the pot in anticipation of playing in position postflop w initiative makes sense.

Quick examples - we're btn, assume straightforward TAGs in the blinds, assume the same UTG limper, loose passive (surprise) pf, positionally unaware (i.e., no huge differentiation between limping frequency from UTG through BTN), and straightforward postflop. Here are some hands I think are no brainers (skipping the premiums):

Any three broadways headed by a suited A
Any three card rundown at least 8hi ss
Any middle pair w two connected cards to the pair (i.e., 9986)

Here are a couple of hands I'm not sure about:

KJT7 w a suited K
AJ75 w a suited A
9764ss

I don't particularly like overlimping these, they're going to hit some flops but not a ton, but that may be a holdover attitude from holdem. W initiative, I'm going to be more comfortable betting the flop when checked to on a variety of flops. Even w 9764ss, I'm going to be comfortable betting A83 two tone flops (even without the suit) when checked to if it's HU. Not trying to suggest that we shouldn't overlimp when we have a hand that plays well multiway, or w a hand that's too strong to "bluff" with (KK75r, QQJ9ss), but...

Too much holdem thinking?

 

[slycbnew]

HEM's HUD isn't working yet on the 100-250bb + ante PS tables, played a while ago HUDless for the first time in one helluva long time - and I don't think it made a helluva lot of difference, starting to see what marginal and Tygran have been saying.

 

[cAPSLOCK]

I've actually been playing a lot of Hi/Lo limit...kind of want to start a thread on that now I don't want it to seem like I'm spamming.

Perhaps the thread at large would object... but until there is way too much activity here to support it I'd say PLO8 could be discussed here too.

Quite different games of course, but so closely related.

 

[slycbnew]

I thought the equity diff on the flop was interesting, didn't think it'd be that big...

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
PL Omaha $0.10(BB) Full Tilt

SB ($26.41)
Hero ($26.48)
UTG ($10.94)
CO ($20.52)
BTN ($20.30)

BTN antes $0.02
SB antes $0.02
Hero antes $0.02
UTG antes $0.02
CO antes $0.02

Dealt to Hero K:club: J:heart: Q:diamond: Q:club:
fold, fold, fold, SB raises to $0.40, Hero raises to $1.30, SB calls $0.90

FLOP ($2.70) J:club: Q:spade: A:club:
SB bets $1.35, Hero raises to $4.90, SB raises to $17.40, Hero raises to $25.16 (AI), SB calls $7.69 (AI)

TURN ($52.88) J:club: Q:spade: A:club: J:spade:

RIVER ($52.88) J:club: Q:spade: A:club: J:spade: 4:spade:

SB shows T:heart: 4:diamond: K:spade: 9:spade:
(Pre 31%, Flop 34.6%, Turn 2.5%)

Hero shows K:club: J:heart: Q:diamond: Q:club:
(Pre 69%, Flop 65.4%, Turn 97.5%)
Hero wins $50.88

 

[slycbnew]

Perhaps the thread at large would object... but until there is way too much activity here to support it I'd say PLO8 could be discussed here too.

Quite different games of course, but so closely related.

I like O8, personally perfectly happy to discuss it here...

 

[CAMurray]

Ive been venturing into PLO late night. Last night was like my 4 run at it. I was able to trun $10 into just under $50 in just under an hour. Below was my first double.

:boxing:


.

 

[kmixer]

I like O8, personally perfectly happy to discuss it here...

Up until yesterday PLO8 was my favorite game. Then I sat at a table that must have been full of house employees because they loved to pay the rake for split pots and would raise pot size all the way down with no chance of winning one side or the other. '

Note to CC members If you are playing PLO8 please avoid this.

 

[slycbnew]

Found a site I wasn't aware of, www.linechecker.com , which is a hand converter and an equity calculator - it works for Omaha hands, didn't try other games. The cool thing about this site, though - you can change the hands and the board to recalculate equity...

So, the hand above, here's the equity calc:

Line Checker Equity Calculator
Preflop

Hand | Equity % | Wins | Ties
Th 4d Ks 9s | 31.56% | 341327 | 2911
Kc Jh Qd Qc | 68.44% | 741770 | 2911

Flop: J:club: Q:spade: A:club:

Hand | Equity % | Wins | Ties
Th 4d Ks 9s | 34.57% | 263 | 41
Kc Jh Qd Qc | 65.43% | 516 | 41

Turn: J:club: Q:spade: A:club: J:spade:

Hand | Equity % | Wins | Ties
Th 4d Ks 9s | 2.50% | 1 | 0
Kc Jh Qd Qc | 97.50% | 39 | 0

Now I change the Kc to the Kh (i.e., take out the fd) from my hand and generate a new equity calc:

Line Checker Equity Calculator
Preflop

Hand | Equity % | Wins | Ties
Th 4d Ks 9s | 32.42% | 350536 | 3094
Kh Jh Qd Qc | 67.58% | 732378 | 3094

Flop: J:club: Q:spade: A:club:

Hand | Equity % | Wins | Ties
Th 4d Ks 9s | 61.65% | 461 | 89
Kh Jh Qd Qc | 38.35% | 270 | 89

Turn: J:club: Q:spade: A:club: J:spade:

Hand | Equity % | Wins | Ties
Th 4d Ks 9s | 2.50% | 1 | 0
Kh Jh Qd Qc | 97.50% | 39 | 0

 

[BenLZ]

Omaha 8 - Thoughts on hand selection in limit FR games?

I've been sort of skeptical of A3 hands because it seems you often need a 2 to flop to get the nut low, and O8 limit is really a game of the nuts. It's fine taking half the pot in a multiway pot because you're still getting a good pot, but supposedly 52% of the time you get A3xx A2xx is out there.

I generally play A2xx, A3 with wheel or broadway cards (scoop potenail, not bare A3) and really good high hands like AKQJ. I'll play 23 and two decent cards from the SB.

Preflop hand selection and the flop are probably the two most important factors in this game, anyone else feel free to share their thoughts on hand selection and just other features about the game because I've been playing a lot of 1/2.

Had a horrible night two night ago and dropped $80 but last night I got back $30 of it.

 

[kmixer]

A3 is always fine if suited to the A. From UTG and UTG+1 I might throw out a raise even. From late position it is often correct call with A3 as long as you have good hi potential. with A3 in late position and a raise and re raise you are always done with this hand. A3 plus two broadway or two babies are also fine.

A2xx is fine from any position. Suited is worth a raise with a few limpers but you want to limp yourself in early position to invite other layers to the party. If you are suited you can 3 bet most A2xx with a suited A

I play in micro. I have been limping with a much broader range lately (especially in late position) and it has been working out fairly well. If you can fold when your flop does not fit, this strategy is fine.

I have been mostly plying PLO8 lately and that is a different beast all together.

Avoid playing hi pairs unless you have a strong low to go with it and position.

I am sure more will come to me when i get back form picking up my daighter at school.

 

[S93]

Ive been venturing into PLO late night. Last night was like my 4 run at it. I was able to trun $10 into just under $50 in just under an hour. Below was my first double.

:boxing:


.

Nice hand. But isnt this a pretty clear prf fold? I mean you hit just about the only flop that is gonna make u the nuts + your never gonna have any big draws and when u hit a flush/straight isnt gonna be second best alot.

 

[CAMurray]

I totally agree. Im totally playing like a limping fish at a low level to get a feel for the game. Im sure when I find my range, this one wont be a part of it.

Nice hand. But isnt this a pretty clear prf fold? I mean you hit just about the only flop that is gonna make u the nuts + your never gonna have any big draws and when u hit a flush/straight isnt gonna be second best alot.